Westminstenders Contines. Boris outmaneovered everyone?! Now War and Peace?

[RedToothBrush]

THE BREXIT FALLOUT CONTINUES - THREAD TEN

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This set of threads started out asking if Boris had been outmanoeuvred by Cameron handing him a poison chalice. Fate made it seem as if Boris lost the battle but May has confounded everyone and handed him a second chance. Or so it might seem.

May now has a new Cabinet after a sweeping cull of Cameron's lot. It is more right wing than in a generation. A number of appointments have raised eyebrows. There are plenty of poison chalices and plenty of Brexiteers. Will this create peace in the Tory ranks? Or is it just the calm before the storm

Labour are tearing themselves apart what now seems to be all out civil war. Talk of gerrymandering, violence, disenfranchisement, deselection and intimidation are rife. The seems to be no end in sight, and no prospect of a solution apparent. The question perhaps seems to be when and how, rather than if the party will split, and who will retain the name and party funds.

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So the sad face of British politics in the last two days can be summed up in a single image. Boris and a brick.

Depressed?

I think we have a while to go yet before we hit the bottom.

Excuse me with the intros as I'm starting to struggle to keep up with things myself

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2684990-The-Westminster-Hunger-Games-Contines-May-Day-May-Day Previous Thread Nine

Liberals have always been pro-EU, so keeping to that is just retaining their core values
What would be cynical is them pretending to be Brexiters.

Bloody HELL. Those 2 tweets by that UKIP councillor:
Does this really look like a big joke - anyone here laughing ? - or does he think the Overton window now allows the far right to threaten / to murder their opponents

I really enjoyed the Lanchester article. Thanks for linking, Kaija.

BigChocFrenzy - I've seen similar on twitter.

Let us not forget that Jo Cox was murdered by one these types - and so it's hard not to find these comments utterly chilling.

Yes, the jeering and cheering aspect of PMQs does irritate me greatly. It's like "okay you are discussing things that are profoundly affecting many peoples' lives and you're acting like a bunch of school boys!" I was rather hoping TM would rein that in a bit.

Yes, I watched PMQs. It seems no change from Dave "putting a stop to Punch & Judy politics" Cameron.

It is agony, watching JC put a question about something so serious to be met with script-written funny retorts. Yet he ploughs on.

I can remember DC making some horrible, personal, jokes when the questions posed to him were about the plight of unaccompanied child refugees, disability benefits and so on - makes my blood boil.

WHY couldn't they have done their bloody protest vote at the last election?*

*Not for UKIP, obvs
*I suppose because it was largely to stop immigration

I'm horrified that it's not just an anonymous nutter making murder threats on the internet - he's an elected councillor of the party that came 3rd in votes at the GE.

Are UKIP going to be like Sin Fein during the Troubles - officially distancing themselves from the actual violence, but slyly letting everyone know they approve really
UKIP = political wing of Britain First, say

The Lanchester article was good. One of my worries now, is that the Tories have woken up to the fact that UKIP threatens the Labour vote, so won't feel the need to attempt to rein them in. Apart from making noises, I don't really see Theresa May doing much for the working classes.

I think that's exactly how it could be, BigChoc. Indeed, if it isn't already.

That an actual elected councillor can say that online is beyond belief.

Arron Banks and Nigel Farage have made comments about violence if not so overtly as that.

I'm not surprised.

The trouble is that if this message is being passed down, then it almost does become a threat and call to arms if Brexit is not going the way you want. And since there are 17 million and one versions of what people think Brexit means to them.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jul/20/world-going-to-hell-in-handcart-but-no-time-to-disengage?CMP=twt_gu
This is a good article about how we must not give into the uncertainty.

www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-referendum-ireland-unity-irish-prime-minister-enda-kenny-what-it-means-a7145731.html
Referendum on Ireland unity on the cards?

That John Lanchester article is superb. I read "whoops" in 2007 and it was about the clearest thing on the financial crash I'd read.

I find if interesting as I know a few leavers. Some (like my in-laws) want to turn back the clock to 1955 and like John Major's back to basics. Others think there are glittering opportunities for opportunistic capitalists. None of the people I know think immigration should reduce or the people left behind should be helped. I fear whatever is the final outcome, there will be a lot of disappointed people who are being encouraged to violence.

I can't entirely agree with Suzanne Moore. Victoria Wood for one, did not consider herself working class. I do think that post war opportunities which opened up to some parts of the working class are now closing down again.

I do agree with her penultimate paragraph - telling people that they are stupid doesn't win converts; finding out why they hold the opinions they do would be a start.

Yes, the Lanchester article was v. good.

I'm just watching c4 news on +1 about Trump.

They were saying that Trump is keen on maybe leaving the WTO. (So that opens the potential here for an even harder Brexit option in theory).

They were also talking about 'winding up NATO'.

The underlying idea being that the way Trump sees to 'make America great again' is effectively to go into isolation from the rest of the world.

Of course if NATO go, then the need for a European Army really does start to rear its head.

That could mean that the 3 big lies that the Leave campaign were built upon: 350 million for the NHS, Turkey joining the EU and the creation of an EU army (which the main argument against was we have NATO for defence) could all be out of the window within a year of the referendum.

It is agony, watching JC put a question about something so serious to be met with script-written funny retorts

This. He needs to call her out on this. It puts people off. It's only designed to boost her street cred with her party. He just needs to call her on it repeatedly.

The put downs were ridiculous. Yes, Labour is an easy target but it's PMQs. Not make jokes about Labour.

We live in serious times.

That John Lanchester article is very good, thanks. But I agree with so much of it that I suppose I would say that. I've also got a job which means I travel around the UK quite a bit and see some of the smaller, less glamorous places. As soon as Cameron first mentioned a referendum I felt that Leave would win.

It's quite a bleak assessment but 2 things struck me - 1, The Overton window can be used for all sorts of policies - don't have to be nasty, just out of the mainstream. So, local banks or a transaction tax to directly fund social housing, for example. And 2, racist language used to be the norm in the UK - just because it's been unleashed now doesn't mean it can't be made unacceptable again. Frankly, I've got to hope this is possible.

Finally, this bit is interesting, "It now looks as if the party’s right in effect borrowed Cameron to win an unlikely election victory that they could never have achieved themselves, and then had him deposed."

Cameron became leader in 2005, against David Davis, Liam Fox and Kenneth Clarke. (Looked that up) Fox is obviously very right but, Davis, despite being a Brexiter, is less so?? Is he suggesting they "borrowed" him in 2005? Saw he was electable? Don't all parties (usually!) do that following election losses?

So, local banks or a transaction tax to directly fund social housing,
I increasingly think that this is where we have to put our energies.

Clarke is a Big Beast, but always failed to be elected Tory leader, because he's very pro-EU and is probably even to the left of Cameron.
Fox is very very right wing, social conservative (but murky himself, as usual !)
Davis is oldfashioned rightwing libertarian - considerably to the right of Cameron I always thought

I watched PMQs on iPlayer and thought TM was surprisingly confident for a first time. However, I didn't like her barbed comments about the dreadful state of the Labour Party - why was this a necessary point of discussion? - but basically she seemed professional and competent. Which Labour doesn't right now. It seemed that her tone was veering slightly right of her Day 1 speech from the steps of Downing Street though. Honeymoon's over.

TM said - with total sincerity ! - to JC at PMQs:
“I hope we’ll be having those exchanges for many years to come”

She made it all look far too easy

TM redefined 'austerity' as 'living within our means'. Why does that remind me of Thatcher?

JC has been leader 10 months iirc, so I don't expect him to improve.
Cameron used to look red-faced and cross sometimes. TM looked very in command on her first PMQs and may even get stronger.
She needs to make sure she doesn't make viewers feel sorry for JC though, because he does look helpless
If it was a boxing match, the ref would have stopped it early.

Why does that remind me of Thatcher?

Because pretending that running an economy was like running a household was one of her feints.

The Tories have never stopped pretending it's true.

And lots of people either believe them, or benefit from pretending to believe them. Despite all evidence.

Hmm, just reading David Davis' wiki entry - being against the Snoopers' Charter is one of the few positive things on it. This made me laugh.

"He won re-election with 72% of the vote, breaking several voting records in the UK. However neither Labour or the Lib Dems put up a candidate."

However neither Labour or the Lib Dems put up a candidate."

😂😂😂

"He stood unopposed but 28% of voters still contrived to vote for someone else."