To feel really positive about leaving the EU

[kitty1976]

I know there has been lots of fear stories but in a few weeks since the vote we have managed to get a new PM who seems more than capable and we are now in control of our destiny without being ruled by an unelected and unaccountable EU. The EU has for a long time been a basket case and has condemned much of the youth of Southern Europe to decades of unemployment, it's a relief to be out. Do remember we are now free to negotiate our own trade deals with the rest of the world and most countries are not in the EU and seem to do well. There have been so many fear stories which have been peddled by self interest. I wonder in 5 years time how many remainers will be asking to rejoin the EU!!

smallfox Who was the other banned poster? I know who the first was, in fact I was amazed she was allowed to go on for as long as she did with her 'interesting' views (but I guess "hand them enough rope...").

We (as a nation) were completely controlled by Murdoch & Harmsworth. When Dave came back from his EU-bullying trip, I found it extremely hard to believe that all he'd got was the VAT off tampons. I had to go and find the government's report on his outcomes to see he'd actually won loads of concessions. Presumably he was holding Brexit over their heads, and that was a final-crunch deal

But we never heard about how well he'd done.

Have people somehow missed that the pensions of the Baby boomers were already too expensive a burden for even the pre Brexit economy to bear? Hence the putting back of the retirement age and the shafting of all the women who were in the region of the retirement age. Add to that that in the 90s time of economic growth a fair few occupational pension schemes thought they could take a contributions "holiday", something I feel strongly about because I was in a boardroom arguing vociferously against it. So now many of those pension schemes have a deficit, and do not have the resources to pay out the pensions promised. Some have had to be nationalised or resort to state aid. That was before the Brexit hit to the economy and one of the reasons I am still aghast at the way the over 44s voted. But then they are the generation that had it all, grew up in a time when exploiting an empire could still deliver economic recovery, free university education, when the colonial gravy train stopped delivering and recession struck (the rose tinted specs brigade have forgotten that Great Britain was NOT working pre 1975) then the Common Market was there for us. It all means, as others have said that it means the millenials have a pretty bad deal of it which is why they voted in such large numbers to remain as Europeans, but no the baby boomers and their rose tinted specs and their illusions of entitlement struck again. And now it is the millenials they have shafted that they think are going to deliver this brave new future? Might be a bit tricky when the brightest and the best have fled overseas in disgust at not just the impact of Brexit but all the resentment and entitlement.

Great Britain was not working because tax rates were excessive (93% top rate anyone?!) and the unions were excessively powerful (secondary picketing, remember?).

Whatever you think of Thatcher later, the growth she set off was phenomenal. Of course there were extraneous factors, there always are, but Thatcher's deregulation delivered real growth for the majority of the U.K.

Show me anyone who paid tax of 93% on all their income.

Re pacifying 27 countries:

We were in a large trading bloc with them. If you think of nations like shops, we had a nice big outlet in the world's second-biggest mall.

We're giving up that store. We're going to set up shop in the high street, by ourselves.

This means we're now in competition with the malls.

Not only do we have to attract customers who mostly drive to the big malls, but we've also got to do deals with all the suppliers. Instead of getting the group discounts, we've got to set up our own contracts. We're no longer one of their biggest customers so we may have to go with little start-ups who are desperate for the work.

Customer-wise, we can't compete with the variety of the EU mall so we have to get people to go out of their way. Probably by being either a specialist shop doing stuff the mall stores don't, or be a pound shop.

The chart shows GDP, so in this metaphor it's ranked by takings. The malls are China, EU, US, and there's our little store further down in green.

I've been reading this thread with interest, waiting for any Leave voter to answer the illusive question of why they feel positive about leaving the EU.

Several Leavers have popped up over the 800 or so posts and all have quoted only cliches and rhetoric but noone has given any tangible justification then we get this little gem:-

The people have decided to roll the dice. May turn out terribly, may be the best thing the UK ever did

How can you possibly not understand that this is the very reason why Remain voters are pissed off- you have no idea what will happen only some vague idea that things need to change.

How will you measure if things have improved?

This is what I've never understood about the Leave vote- nothing tangible was offered to you but surely you had a goal in mind?

Even if that goal never materialises surely you can express it more tangibly than 'we rolled the dice'?

On the xenophobia point, there were two leave posters banned at the weekend for just that.
You might not be, but you have allied yourself with those that are and demonstrate it

I haven't 'allied' myself with anyone.

I voted to leave the EU, that's all.

We're not a big gang btw, just individuals who happened to vote a different way to you.

I too have been asking, both here and IRL, for one tangible way things will be be better for people living in the UK post Brexit.

I find it completely incomprehensible that I haven't been given one.

Oh yes Larry It was Maggie that set off the gravy train that sacrificed the manufacturing sector of the economy and focused on the mammon of Financial services, so now all those Brexiteers plans to sell stuff to the old colonies is a bit disadvantaged eh? And whilst deregulation also gave us 2008, at least the economy has the £16bn of surplus it delivers to counteract the manufacturing deficit, except of course the UK hates bankers, along with experts. And might just sacrifice the fatted calf to avoid a lot of hard working, generally well educated and productive EU migrants coming here. It is all so rational but we believe in the British people and in spite of all these problems it is going to be fine...... And to be honest I think it probably will be because Theresa is not going to endorse the shit deal for Britain that would be Brexit being Brexit. After her Brexiteers have gone off to the former colonies and realised they are no longer there to prop us up and to the EU and realised that they are not going to get their cake and eat it then what she will put to the country in 2020 will be the status quo but with less control, however it is spun. Of course by then the shock the UK has delivered may mean it is a better EU but we will be the ones taking they pain.

Thatcher's deregulation was very largely predicated on an uncontrolled financial sector (she lifted the controls.) Seeing that's it's very unlikely we'll be able to retain our privileged position in legal banking services, we may be looking to consolidate our trade in spiriting large funds away from tax collectors.

In my shopping mall picture, we'll be setting up one of those strange money-wire places that do very short-term payday loans

If we fail to tax excessive earnings, Larry, we can't fund a civilised lifestyle. Thatcher also cut huge chunks out of the safety net in order to make things pleasanter for the super-rich.

A question to all older Leave voters now: if you knew that many youngsters (for whose future you were voting practically!) were going to vote Remain fmore than 70%), would you still vote Leave?

Yes.

Bearbehind,

Any major change has to be a bit of a shot in the dark.

To vote on beliefs without being able to spreadsheet the exact economics is not wrong! I can imagine people like you arguing against the abolition of slavery because people could not exactly quantify the economic benefits.

There are lots of benefits in being a fully independent nation. To pretend there are none is a bit perverse. Equally to pretend that there is zero democratic deficit in the EU would be to ignore the 'experts' you like to defend.

I am well aware that she said the top rate of tax was 93%. When George Harrison sung, "there's one for you, nineteen for me", no one stopped to think, hang on, they have had their personal allowances and then worked through the rate bands, plus having Life Interest Relief at Source, Mortgage Interest Relief at source, (two lots if you weren't married) Retirement Annuity Relief. So none of that was true. Even if it was, how does it relate to the European Union?

The statement is on a par with the £350 million a week for the NHS. You know, we could do this, but we never said that we would. No little asterisk either to say caveat emptor.

NO ONE who shares s platform with Nigel farage gets respect from me

You're the person who called leave voters 'mouth breathing knuckle draggers'.
Why would anyone be remotely interested in gaining your 'respect'?

You really do have a lofty opinion of yourself.

You did not just compare leaving the EU to the Abolition Movement.... tell me you didn't?

larry I'm not asking for a spreadsheet- I'm asking for just one single, solitary reason to be positive about leaving the EU.

One thing that can categorically stated will be better out of the EU than in it?

Is it really the best you can do to twist questions round and spout bollocks about slavery etc?

Bearbehind I think you must have missed it - Larry has explained that there are 'lots' of reasons

I would like to ask the Leavers, what exactly did you think you were voting for?
EEA - so pay your dues, but have free movement of people and free trade?
WTO - terms? If so, how long do you think trade agreements take to negotiate? What do we do meanwhile?

All the Leave leaders have cleared off or been quiet, or a la Johnson and Davis, shown themselves to be not very well informed. But hey thats OK because we have had enough of experts. To give Gove his due, he was prepared to put up for PM.

Oh yes Brexit was such a lofty moral ideal That is why the rest of the world is clapping, oh wait....... the only world leader clapping is Putin

And Donald Trump, and Le Penn. That's whose morals we're now in sync with. Lovely.

There are lots of benefits in being a fully independent nation.

What does that even mean?

If being in the EU meant we were not a "fully independent nation", then what level of isolationism do we need to embrace for "full independence"?

I always think that surely the SS and ISIS know they are the baddies when they are dressed in black? By the same token if the only world leader endorsing your actions is Putin and you have Marine Le Pen clapping too does that not make you a bit uneasy about the moral ground you are walking on?