To feel really positive about leaving the EU

[kitty1976]

I know there has been lots of fear stories but in a few weeks since the vote we have managed to get a new PM who seems more than capable and we are now in control of our destiny without being ruled by an unelected and unaccountable EU. The EU has for a long time been a basket case and has condemned much of the youth of Southern Europe to decades of unemployment, it's a relief to be out. Do remember we are now free to negotiate our own trade deals with the rest of the world and most countries are not in the EU and seem to do well. There have been so many fear stories which have been peddled by self interest. I wonder in 5 years time how many remainers will be asking to rejoin the EU!!

Soover, that does sound good. How do you think this brighter future is going to be achieved?

a brighter better global future

Oh, please. I've got bruises from crashing into so many insubstantial clichés.

And just to be clear, what was the great news about David Davis? That he doesn't understand eu trade?

Small - no not you

I am still hoping that there's a reason why Theresa May put undiplomatic BoJo in as foreign secretary, climate change denying Andrea Leadsom as Environment minister and clueless-about-EU-trade-deals David Davis as Brexit minister.

Maybe she's waiting for them all to fall flat on their face. If the Leave campaigners themselves can't produce a "Brexit", she could potentially just say, "they couldn't do it". It would have to be Leavers leading Brexit, because if Remainers did it and came to the same conclusion, the public would be appalled and say, "they never even tried and this is undemocratic". TM could get rid of them all and start anew and maybe sell a Brexit lite (Norway model) to the unassuming public.

It certainly only seems right that they should attempt to clean up their own mess. Just have to hope they don't do too much further damage in the process. Boris Johnson's appointment may be politically good domestically, but it is excruciating to see how the rest of the world received the news.

larry
I came back to check just now whether you replied or not.
At 19.49 you replied
"So how would Italy be bailed out, if it came to it?"

The first words that came to my mind were "what the hell!". I wrote all of that post and this is the response you give to me? I don't want to sound patronising but I do feel the media fed a lot of twisted lies and people bought from them and voted Leave. What the actual fuck! I said we are going to go down, property will rocket up, we don't manufacture nothing blah blah blah. And you ask "So how would Italy be bailed out, if it came to it?"
What the fuck man!!

I should probably leave this thread as now I have resorted to sweating mainly.

snowbells
I have been saying exactly this from he day she appointed her cabinet.
I think it will be easy to throw these arses under the bus once it all starts rolling. I don't even want to think of the alternative.
With every passing day, I feel someone must be held bloody accountable for the money hat got wipes off of UK markets on the day defending results came out. And someone must be held accountable for the property bubble that coming now.

do you think these trade deals are good enough?

There's always more or better to be done.

I know Brazil quite well; I can attest that the EU has worked wonders there. Funding's directed towards both industry and social projects, and is structured in such a way that it enhances life very noticeably for less-privileged Brazilians. Education, in particular, has really blossomed and there are myriad other areas where our input makes a mass, nationwide difference to people who need it.

Africa's more difficult than the Mercosur. Corruption's so systemic & institutionalised that it is virtually impossible to enforce fair distribution of foreign aid. To a great extent, policy has to be "throw enough help that way, and some bits will get through". The EU can't rationally take that approach, as all the members would - reasonably enough - want to know why their money was being sprayed into corrupt officials' hands.

The EU developed microfunding which does have an immediate impact on the poorest communities. It's also supported a lot of health & education initiatives - again at ground level, which is an inefficient use of funds but sometimes has to be done that way. And, of course, we import lots of African produce.

All the same, the African projects proceed slowly and haltingly: it's all documented, with visible frustration, on the Europa website if anyone's interested.

I don't know that there is an ideal way to support developing African nations, given the way things work and the number of wars happening all the time. I certainly don't believe one little island can do it better than the EU. Although, given that England is officially the most corrupt nation on the planet (in money terms,) I am cynically confident there'll be plenty of volunteers for the role!

Good enough? Yes, I think so under current conditions. Ideal? No, of course not.

In case anyone isn't clear why I'm talking about trade and aid in the same breath, it works like this:-

Brazil - Hey, Europe, would you like to buy some mangoes?
EU - Maybe. What kind of deal were you thinking of?
Brazil - We have too many. We can supply all your mango needs.
EU - OK, we consume about 3 billion mangoes a year. We grow 1 billion of those.
Brazil - We can sell you 2 billion a year for $3 each.
EU - How would you like to be our preferred mango supplier? We'll grow something else instead of the 1 billion mangoes.
Brazil - Sounds good! We can drop the price to $2.50.
EU - Wait a minute. We can offer you a 10-year deal at $2.50 but in return, we want to see you invest $1 billion a year in whole-of-life education opportunities for the poorest 60% of your society.
Brazil - We can't do that! Money, expertise, organisation, etc.
EU - We'll lend you the first $1 billion at tiny interest. And we'll send some experts to get it set up.
Brazil - 3 billion mangoes a year, for 10 years, at $2.50 each? And you won't grow competing mangoes? Can you make that $3 each?
EU - Nope. When shall we send the experts?

Sorry, that was overly long and totally made-up figures, but I was enjoying myself

I hope you will join me

I have zero faith in the ethics of the UK government, nor in our capacity for large-scale, intelligent deals (looks at Chinese/French nuclear project & winces). I'm prepared for 4+ years of grinding activism. I've got five letters to write tomorrow!

By the way - TTIP is only visible because of the EU. Absolute secrecy was a principal demand of the contractors, and the Coalition was ready to sign it - unaltered and in secret - over two years ago. It's the European Commission that made it public and insisted on re-negotiation.

I'm beyond posting angry faces about this stuff. I'm just sighing a lot now!

All trade deals are negotiated in secret, mainly because of the fact that if it were completely open markets and investment would respond to daily reports of what was discussed and the implications. It means instability as they can take years.

They also are discussed in secret so that there is no chance of insider dealing, and if it ocurrs then it is easy to trace.

Its funny how the new government have cited CETA as a model, when it contains the same ISDS agreements that people objected to. The understanding of ISDS and the caveats secured by the EU in both deals, which have been released to stop anxiety about public services amongst the electorate, is pretty poor in most countries.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, economics is suddenly a hot topic, but its more complex than people paint it.

For those who bought the line that the EU's too soft on refugees, here's Medécins Sans Frontières statement on why they've rejected EU funding.

I have to say I strongly oppose our policy, which is to keep refugees where they are - including in the countries where they're being murdered - on pain of losing EU funds. MSF are obviously very angry about it.

But the EU policy it demonstrates is utterly brutal. Not as advertised by the Leave campaign.

I blame Thatcher! She told everyone a country's economy is the same as a household budget!

I've read all the EC's documentation of TTIP, up to the end of last year (then I reached overkill.)

It is funny really all the experts said not joining the euro was going to be the downfall of our economy but that turned out to be far from the case!!!

Name three reputable economists or international economic bodies that recommended we should join the euro in 1999.

The BOE and Treasury didn't back joining the Euro, neither did many economists or academic economic organisations.

Funny that the euro thing is always raised, but the head of Economists for Britain, who said that the UK implementing a minimum wage would be massively detrimental, and was found wrong, is praised.

Confirmation bias abounds, and revisionism.

All trade deals are negotiated in secret - This wasn't what I meant. The Coalition tried to legally enforce gagging orders on the journalists who'd found out they were discussing TTIP. The secrecy our own government wanted was over the fact it even existed.

I know, it was also only later that our government put the NHS on the list of public services or state owned monopolies that would be exempt.

Our government would have signed it without putting that caveat in, as many other EU government had done.

Funny though, that people don't know that formerly state owned assets are currently owned by state owned monopolies from other countries, or partially owned ones that are regulated stringently.

For example, EDF are bound by the fact that they can't raise energy prices by a % more than inflation in France. When they raise them here they can.

All hail the UK government and its benevolence.

All hail the UK government and its benevolence. And its incompetence.

That was rather the intention of that remark.

:) i know, I just liked the the rhyme!