To feel really positive about leaving the EU

[kitty1976]

I know there has been lots of fear stories but in a few weeks since the vote we have managed to get a new PM who seems more than capable and we are now in control of our destiny without being ruled by an unelected and unaccountable EU. The EU has for a long time been a basket case and has condemned much of the youth of Southern Europe to decades of unemployment, it's a relief to be out. Do remember we are now free to negotiate our own trade deals with the rest of the world and most countries are not in the EU and seem to do well. There have been so many fear stories which have been peddled by self interest. I wonder in 5 years time how many remainers will be asking to rejoin the EU!!

Larry - I agree that both sides of the campaign were poor quality and in bad faith, I do think Leave was worse (but yes I am of course a biased remainer) if you are going to have referendums SURELY you should have strict conduct rules for campaigners and media? How on earth can you have a referendum where the winning side is scrabbling to take down its website the day after so no one can see the 'little inaccuracies'. Or posting stuff pretending it is 'official information' through the door with a mini disclaimer at the bottom admitting which campaign it belongs to? That's surely just corruption?

I grew up outside UK, lots of referenda where I'm from (and ours are binding, not just advisory, also simple majority decisions). I feel rather :( that many Brits are so anti-referenda. Yes there is always misinformation of some kind, get over it. You have so little democracy in this country, why the determination to limit it still further.

I'm appalled at the EU-R result b/c it means a long serious of hassles with no significant advantages. Blaming the process is a waste of time, though.

snowbells What all those sniping at the bankers and financial services don't seem to get is that the EU's role in this has only ever been to manage and control things. It was Maggie who decided that the economy didn't need manufacturing and killed it off with free market economics. It was Maggie who decided that a service economy particularly focused on financial services was the way to go and set it on its way with the massive deregulation of the Big Bang without putting a robust regulatory framework in its place so that regulation has been on the back foot in the face of high risk City buccaneering ever since . That, and not understanding the implications of globalisation, were the root of the banking crisis. And now we have a PM with a picture of Maggie on her wall and a foreign secretary who fancies himself as a buccaneer of the empire. A vote against the EU was not a vote against that element of City culture, it was a vote for it.

To Chris1234567890

Please watch .

Why exactly should we Remainers stop fighting for what we believe in? In the past, should people have stopped fighting after the first set-back?!?

We would have a world without progress if we did!

Long lost,

Your post is very like a toddler temper tantrum.

My human rights, and the human rights of all women in Ireland, were voted away kn a referendum in 1983.

Democracy my arse.

That is a tyranny.

The idea that when I was a child, people got to vote away my rights makes me furious.

It is a mockery of democracy.

Just like Brexit.

Snowbells,

I agree with Ian Hislop. Remainers should keep fighting. The debate is far from over forever. The EU will also have its debates and may end up in a form which becomes beneficial for us to rejoin.

I agree with Doinitfine on that one - the 1983 referendum was a particular insult. Lljkk I just don't agree. On highly complex constitutional decisions, with no conduct rules or measures to stop corruption we might as well have been voting whether we should colonise the moon! It's an absolute piss take!

Larry There are temper tantrums on both sides, a lot of people feel very strongly about this issue partly because the campaigns were exploitative and decisive and appealed to emotions not reason. There was little evidence of reasoned argument but lots of rhetoric and media spin that basically undid a lot that the trade descriptions act and anti discrimination legislation had achieved in terms of enforcing the moral values of fairness and honesty on the behaviour of individuals and organisations in society. Back in the original referendum in the 70s campaigning was done via the doorstep and very worthy and boring party political broadcasts. It wasn't exciting, it didn't evoke emotions whether it was an enthusiasm for French cheese and a European identity / peace making project or not liking Polish people or bankers of refugees and frustration with not being able to get a doctors appointment. Of course we were in a recession, we needed Europe, not like now, oh wait......

On highly complex constitutional decisions, with no conduct rules or measures to stop corruption we might as well have been voting whether we should colonise the moon! It's an absolute piss take!

Yes.

Yesterday I was comparing it to a vote to opt out of gravity.

Larry, did you not get the bit in the opening post where there is a reference to possibly things having settled down within 5 years? How do you feel about people who show such gob smacking ignorance and lack of insight ? I just feel stunned. I'm sorry if that comes across as a temper tantrum to you, but I just don't know how to respond when I see people blythly blathering on like this. If she had said 105 years, maybe I could see her point. It is possible that the damage done might be under control within the next century. Under control, possible, not reversed. The uk is going to be destroyed in slow motion over many decades, starting from when the shock wears off, and people start responding, I would guess in 6 months or so? Yet this poster is rabbiting on about how nicely things have turned out, after all, less than a month in.

Longlost - with all due respect this thread is 22 pages long and has evolved with some interesting discussions. I think to jump in without RTFT (or at least a large chunk) you will see that the majority of people on both sides know that this is a long game. If it helps I haven't come across much blathering in RL just on MN (and I include myself in that!)

But just to also say there were some people I would have thought that would have voted to stay in the EU based on the here and now - that also may not look as it does in 105 years time (I fear not for the better) - but we just don't know either way.

larry
Sorry if it looked that way. But I honestly just do not see the connection between the two and since you wrote it here, I think it's nice to try and help me see what you actually mean. It will me understand this discussion more.
As for your other points regarding 2008 financial crisis, I will come back to them later after going through them properly.

Long lost,

It could be over within a couple of years, or 105 as you say. We have no idea. And I really doubt whether the exact nature of our relationship with the EU will determine our long term future. That will be determined by education and work ethic and boring things like that,

larry There are already very few Leave voters who are trying to produce data / figures of some kind to prove their points. You say academics/universities who supported BREXIT are in monitory. I can bet my right hand that you will never choose/support that kind of minority view of doctors for treating a loved one who is facing a life threatening situation. So how come you ignore it here?

Valentine,

I think I explained my rationale quite clearly over the nature of expertise in different situations.

It is possible to predict with a very high probability the evolution of a malignant growth. The interplay of global economics and politics is far more chaotic and unpredictable.

My suspicion is that what we are seeing here is far smaller a change than the current thinking and a new slightly different compromise will be reached. The markets right now are saying similar.

I was talking to a friend at a major strategic consultants the other day and their central view was that the Eurpzone was going to collapse anyway but Brexit may have just speeded up the process.

If the Eurozone collapses we're all fucked, its highly, highly unlikely anyway, but I really don't understand leave voters saying stuff like this because they think it vindicates their point. It really doesn't.

Or maybe its cause they realise they made things worse, and its the thing that would take the blame from them and make things even more worse.

I very much don't want to recap the reasons to vote whichever way in the Referendum, but trying to buffer EU collapse (if it was inevitable, I don't think it is) would be a solid reason to Remain, in my mind. Damage limitation strategy.

Thinking we'll somehow be able to stand & watch with disinterest what happens in EU: very naive.

Smallfox- I wouldn't say it was highly highly unlikely, I would say there's a good possibility and it it did form a part of my reasons but no, it was not said to vindicate my vote as a whole - that's too easy.

Lljkk - I don't see why we should expect to be the EUs buffer and certainly wouldnt have voted remain on that basis (not saying you did). In all honesty, and I don't think I am being naive, I don't think anyone would stand and watch disinterested, we are still part of Europe after all.

Yes to the above.

Everyone must have heard that phrase in 2008... you know, "too big to fail". Well, ladies and gentlemen... if multinational banks had to be bailed out because doing otherwise would send a rippling shock through the economy no matter where you are...

... just think about what would happen, if the EU did fail?!?

People keep on saying that the EU needs us because we buy their cars or whatever. BUT we rely on them more for exports. Even the US would prefer for the EU to stay together. If the EU really did fail, it would have a horrible effect on the whole world, and guess what would happen to this little island of ours?!

Amazing that people actually want the EU to fail... even if it's just to justify their vote!

Crosspost - yes to the post above the one above.

Snowbells

Too big to fail is a phrase from 1929, in my mind. Why we can't move past it (actually achieve a situation where no bank is allowed to get too big to fail) I don't know.

Couldnt you equally toss that phrase in a slightly different direction?

Anyway much as I have enjoyed reading/commenting on this thread, it's a hot day, my grass is about 4ft high and I need to shift a couple of lbs so I am off to try and kill two birds with one stone .

I really don't think the EU failing is a possibility. The ramifications of such an event on the world would be devastating and there are too many major world economies and political powers in the EU with vested interest in its success for this to happen.

It won't fail, end of anyone discussing otherwise is involved in some serious wishful thinking not any reasoned critical analysis.