To feel really positive about leaving the EU

[kitty1976]

I know there has been lots of fear stories but in a few weeks since the vote we have managed to get a new PM who seems more than capable and we are now in control of our destiny without being ruled by an unelected and unaccountable EU. The EU has for a long time been a basket case and has condemned much of the youth of Southern Europe to decades of unemployment, it's a relief to be out. Do remember we are now free to negotiate our own trade deals with the rest of the world and most countries are not in the EU and seem to do well. There have been so many fear stories which have been peddled by self interest. I wonder in 5 years time how many remainers will be asking to rejoin the EU!!

"Those who can, do. Those who cant, teach."

As said by G.B Shaw, who believed in eugenics, you might want to look at who you are quoting.

D- must do better

Off to dunces corner with you.

I'm very happy about it and rather excited about the new cabinet. I've never known anywhere as pro EU as mumsnet, even when I worked in the European Parliament

roar - Dh and I were remainers (myself incredibly staunchly). His feeling currently is that the cabinet is actually vastly improved and is using that to help him start to feel positive about our brave new world. It does seem to be working. He fecking hated Osbourne though. I'm trying to share his opinion but cant get past Boris and as one journalist once said 'his passively aggressive bad hair cut'.

Well if employers are not allowed to bus workers in as they do now, workers who will house share etc so they can survive here but send home money, then the employers will have to look at other options like upping wages and conditions to attract workers needed to generate profit, why do you guys think income inequality is now worse than ever?

It's so simple, it used to be that if an employer put out jobs and the wages and conditions were crap then quite simply no one took the jobs, that forced the employer to up the wages and conditions until the roles were filled, that was a natural equilibrium, the only way the working class can avoid being exploited is to ensure a system where as close to posible there is more jobs avaliable than workers, then the elites opened the jobs market to 500million people, a lot of whom are from low income low cost former Soviet societies which took all power from the working class here, people like Jeremy Corbyn, hillary Ben etc could see this obvious fact back in the day but it seems the 1% have now bamboozled the liberals into fighting for this system to exploit the working class on their behalf.

Again how is opening the UK's economy up to the other 90% of world trade such a bad thing?

It always has been open. OK, there are a few areas where trade will be a bit freer, but on what basis do you suggest that will make up for what we lose in trade with the EU? We currently do more trade with EU countries than we do with the rest of the world, and companies in the EU really won't have any incentive to trade with us when it will be so much easier and cheaper for them to trade with the other 26 EU countries.

Yeeeooo

Its generally acknowledge that unless you are in the bottom 5% of earners Immigration has not had an effect on your pay. Even the bottom 5% of earners needs a 10% increase in immigration in their area to see a 1.9% decrease in pay.

This is displayed by the fact that when the people from the EU 8 countries began migrating here between 2004 and 2008 the average wages rose, and rose higher than the rate of inflation.

The low wage growth from 2008 onward is more to do with the fall out from the financial crash than immigration. Immigration is an easy target but it is erroneous to blame it for low wages.

Corbyn and Benn were anti EU mainly because of the fact that it curtails the kind of union power that was their base in the 1970s and has laws against the nationalisation of private assets without compensation.

It's so simple, it used to be that if an employer put out jobs and the wages and conditions were crap then quite simply no one took the jobs, that forced the employer to up the wages and conditions until the roles were filled, that was a natural equilibrium, the only way the working class can avoid being exploited is to ensure a system where as close to posible there is more jobs avaliable than workers, then the elites opened the jobs market to 500million people, a lot of whom are from low income low cost former Soviet societies

I think there is a bit of a contradiction there somewhere? Do we want private individuals to be enterprising and create wealth or do we want the dictatorship of the proletariat?

I think income inequality is worse than ever because of neoliberal economic polices which have devastated this country since the 1970s. I grew up at a time when my factory working dad and my shop worker mum could afford a mortage in a decent area and didn't have to worry much about paying for basic bills like electric and food. The idea that people with equivalent jobs today could afford a mortage on a house like they could, let alone extras is almost unthinkable. The devastation of trade unions, of decent jobs and conditions for working-class people, many of whom are now forced into zero hour contracts and face wage freezes almost constantly, is a disgrace and a tradegy. It's not the fault of Europe, it's not the fault of feckless working-class people, though those who benefit like to tell us it is.

I'm all for a bit of class warfare, but please aim the ire at those who have brought us to a situation where more than one million people use food banks every week. That's NOT the immigrants, it's successive governments and their donors, newspaper owning cronies etc... It's not the EU either, though god knows it's not perfect. Without the EU, workers' rights would be even more limited than they are. May I remind you that it was Cameron's govenrment which introduced union busting legislation, not the EU.

Oh one thing here for changes in job conditions, i blame trade unions.

YES trade unions, who in the 1970s caused great harm to British industry and called wild cat strikes, went on strike without proper ballots being taken and generally abused their powers.

They were offered a deal in 1969 by Wilson to try to limit the damage they were doing, called "in place of strife" but they were too powerful and declined: " We'd like a lick of the lolipop, but we're not going to swallow the stick".

Basically it was more formal rules about how stikes could be called and dealing with industrial disputes.

if they hadn't been so arrongant we would have had no need for Union busting Thatcher.

Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.

Chris demonstrating their complete lack of understanding of what academics do.

Meanwhile still waiting for evidence of corruption due to research funding.

we now have the entirety of the world's collective knowledge accessible from the very device you hold in your very hand, vested intrests are a real thing.

Also at this and the blithe assertion that X can be wrong sometimes theregore lets just ignore all X and find whatever we want to back up our preconceptions on the Internet. Let's hope Brave New Britain never needs neurosurgeons or nuclear physicists!

Oh it won't be offered elements, someone on a previous thread tried to discredit Oxford Economics because the University of Oxford takes part in Erasmus.

But then they also try to do it with the BBC because it got some EU funding, which equaled 0.5% of its entire revenue, i mean that's enough to make them totally biased right?

'Let's hope Brave New Britain never needs neurosurgeons or nuclear physicists!'

Why would we lose neurosurgeons or physicists (or any more than we do already)?

social housing ... working class jobs ... health ... education

Does anybody here think the shortage of these is down to the EU?

I heard a lot of people claiming it was because of immigrants (and, before that, disabled people) but when it comes down to it, they recognised the real problem is UK government policy.

Once we get past that, they said our EU contribution is what was holding us back. Even if you dug out figures to show we at least break even, it looks like a big number (especially as the Leave campaign inflated it!) so people understandably thought we'd make good use of it elsewhere.

Problem is, our media have - at the government's request - been telling us all every day for years - it's not the government's fault: there's no money.

Which is cobblers of course. It's just that we have a government which officially prioritises big business over ordinary people. (Their theory says that, as long as big business makes loads of money, everything else will sort itself out.)

Why would we lose neurosurgeons or physicists (or any more than we do already)?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-uk-leaves-the-eu-36719923

www.independent.co.uk/news/science/brexit-britain-latest-news-academics-threaten-to-quit-brain-drain-over-racist-xenophobic-eu-a7133316.html

TheElements,

Up to a point....The BBC piece quotes the vice chancellor of Sheffield Hallam, the 72nd in the university league table, hardly a bastion of original scientific research.

The second is a fairly nebulous piece concerning 350 scientists of whom 18% (63) scientists say that they are 'planning' to leave the UK.

Our main brain drain is to the U.S, which will continue. And Cern, although it has EC links, is outside the EC framework, with many co-operating countries being outside the EC.

From the CERN website:

'The UK’s EU referendum on 23 June is a case in point. Because CERN is an organisation founded to facilitate cooperation across borders, Brexit is an uncomfortable truth to many of us. It is, nevertheless, the outcome of the political processes of one of our founding Member States, and is something we must respect. Whatever direction the UK now takes, we will be working with the country’s particle physics community to ensure that they, and we, continue to reap the benefits of the UK’s involvement with CERN.'

72nd in the university league table, hardly a bastion of original scientific research.

So much for "snobbery" and "elitism" when it suits? I am speaking also from personal experience of myself and colleagues at a selection of more esteemed institutions when I tell you that this is actually happening. And that your quote reflects the very spirit of outward-looking collaboration that is integral to academia and we are determined to keep alive in spite of, not due to, Brexit.

Brexit is a long term thing. No one knows what the outcome will be. However, I think that with Oxford and Cambridge in the UK, we certainly punch above our weight in Europe. They are still ranked in the top 10 globally (well, last I looked).

I think the spirit of which you speak is admirable. I don't think we need to be in the EU for it to continue.

"no one knows what the outcome will be"

Yes, and this uncertainty, added to the economic contraction that is coming will make recovery far more difficult. Also Oxford Economics have predicted that not having full access to the single market would be disastrous for the UK economy, even if beneficial trade deals are signed with other countries.

So:
Brexit will take a long time.
Nobody knows what the outcomes will be.
But we are sure that the outcomes will be good.
And we won't be losing out on scientific innovation because we won't be losing funding or researchers.
And we don't need those experts anyway because we can Google stuff.

The elements,

Sure, all uncertainty is short term negative, so does that mean we should never risk disturbing the status quo?

US should still be a British colony really. That war of independence sure did create some short term uncertainty.

I'm with you op, but I rarely post on the ref threads anymore as they're full of EU fanatics. Even if you start a thread titled 'leavers only' some of them crash it.
Just let them get on with it, ( hopefully they'll bugger off to Italy or somewhere so they can feel 'European' again )
& for all their intellectual sneering, they can't work out simple maths.
52% is more than 48% - therefore the 52% vote won. How simple is that? But as I say, let them get on with it. Nothing they say will change anything.

We're out of the EU - that's the main thing.

We're not out yet. Won't be for a while yet.

Yes, larrygrylls. In the US, the 4th of July is celebrated, because they finally gained independence from Britain,

Maybe the EU will one day celebrate the 23rd of July in the same manner.