I've never met a brex regret

[TaleSpin]

Those reputed regretters...they must hang out in the psyches of rabid Remainers, for I sure ain't met one!

My mum doesn't regret voting leave, she's delighted and has said that 'all the foreigners will go home now and on more terrorists will be able to come here', these were her actual words.

I also now a couple of people who voted Leave because they were convinced Remain would win and the wanted to let the Gov now they weren't happy and wanted EU reform. Both are devastated.

Sorry 'know' think my k isn't working very well!

the end just seems to revert back to name calling and further entrenched positions

Indeed...

Such as

rabid Remainers

all remainers keep harping on that

Talk of 'them' and 'us'.

I love the language people are using to bring people together.

I've met a few who still seem frankly delusional about the economics of leave, but there we go.

Met a few who are worried about the result.

But I work with universities & academics who are going to shafted by Brexit so it's not a surprise that most people I see daily are remain.

I have found that mostly amongst my contemporaries they assumed I voted to remain, as they did, and were vocal about it.

When the inevitable 'look what you have done, you racist fools' posts came up the day after the referendum, I did challenge a couple by saying things like 'is that what you think of me?' A couple of slightly awkward conversations followed.

I don't regret my vote. I don't feel any jubilation either: I'm sorry people are upset, but their personal feelings were not what carried me into the voting booth.

I know 4 leavers at work and none of them, as they admitted are interested in politics, they based their votes on anecdotal stories about the common agricultural policy, a story about a Tesco distribution centre and Farage based rants regarding the EU. The other one said she wanted Britian to be great again. They are intelligent, educated people.

Another one voted out, and then he said he changed his mind immediately and regretted his vote.

Do they regret their votes? Who knows? But as none of them had one proper reason for leaving maybe they would change their votes, maybe not. But I think that was probably about the level of political discourse of the majority of the leavers, not those on mumsnet probably.

I also agree that the abuse by some Remainers has been unacceptable...how anyone thinks it OK to criticise a campaign built, to a significant extent, on anti-immigration and then slag people off for their perceived level of education / racism where there is no evidence / class or any other form of discriminatory categorisation I don't know.

How can anyone actually discuss anything when insults form the basis of discussion? This was the whole problem with the campaigns themselves.

Indeed, Barmy, although I would politely correct the line in your first paragraph to 'anti uncontrolled immigration.'

Was I being "patronising"? I'm not sure. I think I was more being exasperated.

But apologies anyway. Always think twice before posting on impulse!

Kess

I like you. We've agreed on stuff before, mostly to do with education.

But I have to admit I did read your last paragraph as an assumption that many, if not most, Leave voters, did so thoughtlessly at best.

That being said, I don't want to fall out with anyone :)

You see, I dont understand those that supposedly voted leave on the basis of a 'protest vote', what did they think would happen? Every vote counted in this referendum and that was made perfectly clear throughout the campaign. Making a protest vote in a local election is one thing, but on such an important matter it is just ridiculous. I wonder if they are just saying that now to justify their position with their remain peers, for fear of being labelled racist, intolerant and uneducated. Maybe they were not expecting this reaction (I certainly wasnt) from remain and have been made to feel ashamed of their votes.

This referendum should never have been called imo. It's opened up rifts in society and made everyone pick a side. These rifts have always existed but for the most part we just overlooked and plodded on together. I'm really quite frightened about what will happen in Scotland and NI and think the economic damage is way down the list of our problems.

Element - as you must be aware as soon as leavers start replying to threads they a badgered , wanting proof of reasons they voted leave -and as proof is given they then turn nasty calling you racist or uneducated etc.

But there are more Leave voters, yes? So you could just crush the heretics armed only with spoons if you wanted to. Or at the very least muster a swell of support to drown out inconvenient disbelievers.

The protest voters I know both told me how they would be voting before the vote, they were both convinced Remain would win and both wanted Remain to win.

Kate No, I absolutely don't assume that! I know there are lots of thoughtful leave voters. (Partly because I do a lot more reading on here than I do posting.) Not only that, I understand why people voted Leave as a protest vote, and why they are concerned about immigration.

I guess my reaction was down to my strong feelings about the dangers of wishful thinking and confirmation bias generally.

Kate.....yes, that was the official message. I do remain sure that for many people, including many that I have spoken to, the issue was actually anti-immigration. And that the campaigns fed that, whilst holding the official line in 'anti-uncontrolled immigration'. The UKIP poster, picturing immigrants, not immigration, for example. Never was dog whistle politics better defined. I do criticicise that campaign, and I do criticise people who are snide, discriminatory in an equivalent 'class' way.

Oh, I think you will have people who were 'sticking it to cameron' and people who were protesting against 'something' but not precisely sure of what.

However, that's just always going to happen. People vote Labour because their dad did, vote Conservative because they like the colour blue - I don't think there's any way of getting round the fact that most people aren't political junkies and don't know the ins and outs of everything. They just have to go for what they feel, at a fairly base level, best represents them and what they feel.

One of the fascinating things about it is that if you voted to remain for selfish reasons - your kids going to university in Europe, your husbands job - that's okay - but if you voted Leave for 'selfish' reasons (mostly concerning worries about the impact of uncontrolled immigration) then you are indeed selfish.

It's a complex issue. In voting 'Leave', it is not the same as saying 'I am against everything the EU has ever done' just as voting Remain doesn't stand for 'the EU is perfect and wonderful.' Yet somehow, in the aftermath, we have gone for these extreme views. For my part, I acknowledge there are advantages to EU memberships but personally I felt leaving was better for the country in the long run.

I suspect most people, however they voted, came to a similar conclusion - either that staying was mostly for the best or leaving was mostly the right thing to do.

In any case, a 'protest' vote does tell us a lot. It is what the establishment -Tory and Opposition - risk when they leave huge communities un-listened to, disenfranchised and bearing the brunt of austerity.

Yet somehow, in the aftermath, we have gone for these extreme views

Indeed. A lot of psychology, wanting to justify views, cognitive dissonance etc - all playing out at the moment.

Justifying an opinion once a decision has been made is psychologically interesting.

Kess

No problem

knew kess was one of the good 'uns

UKIP are an unpleasant bunch. We get that. They resorted to crude and barely concealed racism to appeal to a certain section of society. That doesn't mean everyone who voted Leave was influenced by this (I think a lot of Leave voters felt Farage was at one point doing more harm than good!) of course.

However, where I suspect I might well differ from others on here is that I don't think ignoring those feelings of anti immigration is necessarily a good thing. The message of 'suck it up, you're racist!' has probably ironically contributed more to racism than previously!

People deal badly with change generally (what's happening now is a case in point!) and I don't think anyone can doubt that culturally there have been huge changes due to a large influx of people from Eastern Europe coming to the UK in a short space of time. I voted with not Farage as the voice in my head but Field and Benn and others - and Corbyn himself, even though he won't admit it! - and this large influx has created tensions and concerns amongst the very people who are most likely to listen to Farage and his bile.

As part of a social analysis it is fascinating but also becomes quickly circular.

1. People are stupid. They don't like immigration: they do not see that without immigration we would not have XYZ. They need Education. They need to Learn.

1. The People vote to leave.

1. See, told you the People are stupid ...

It doesn't in a sense matter how stupid they are: even taking the 'regretters' into consideration, that was how they voted - and if that was a protest vote and they regret it then they ultimately still have to stand by that decision and take responsibility for it. But surely the lesson here is that you cannot, you should not, ignore the messages being sent to you via the same people who put you in power?

Or, what you just said Barmy; the more concise version :)

I didn't know any "Leavers", so therefore can't comment if any now regret it (did come across one at a party who'd said she was voting leave because of the Syrians and Iraqis in Kent I moved on to talk to someone else)

I do however know 1 person (and she says 3 of her close family as well) who voted No because they believed the promise that it was the only way to save our place in the EU despite me warning her. She's now a firm Yes - and says that her family will campaign for Yes too.

Thanks Kate. This is an interesting discussion. My remain vote was based primarily on my fears about the economy, which I perceive as having very scary structural weaknesses. If we were in a stronger position economically, I might well have voted Leave, because I do think that working-class people have had a very raw deal out of immigration. Many want to deny it, but there has been downward pressure on wages, and a reluctance to train English people when immigrants come already trained. My big concern is that if the economy tanks, those people will be even worse off than they are now. Fingers crossed that won't happen...

I agree. I think we may well see an initial period of 'worse' but I also firmly believe that things will improve over the course of the next decade and I hope we will have a more balanced society as a result.

Oh dear, now my latest post makes it sound like I am completely anti-immigration. I'm not!