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Brexit

Teresa May or Andrea Leadsom?

511 replies

Toofondofcake · 07/07/2016 16:36

So without starting anything too politically fraught I wonder if people would share with me who they prefer for conservative leadership out of the two.

The race is now down to them and so we will have a female PM again!

Opinions?

OP posts:
LurkingHusband · 08/07/2016 16:03

Booting people out is illegal under the Vienna Convention

I thought this was not as clear cut as people think, and dependent on what deals are made as to whether people will need to seek residency from with the UK?

IANAL but my memory is that it's illegal to make a person "stateless" under the Vienna Convention.

We know this, because the UK government wanted to do this, and was rightly and roundly slapped down. In fact, the Home Secretary who got the finger from the UKSC was .... Theresa May

I'm posting the whole thing here, so people can read it easily. Remember: this woman is probably our next PM. Maybe some of our fears are not so fanciful after all.

www.blackstonechambers.com/news/cases/secretary_of_state_6.html

Secretary of State for the Home Department v Al-Jedda

Oct 13

[2013] UKSC 62
After 5 years and more of litigation, the Supreme Court has confirmed that taking away British citizenship is impermissible if it results in statelessness.

This particular case involving Mr Al-Jedda goes back to 2008, when SIAC heard and dismissed his appeal against the Secretary of State’s decision to deprive him of British citizenship on conducive to public good grounds. Under section 40(2) of the British Nationality Act 1981, that power cannot be exercised if the Secretary of State, ‘is satisfied that the order would make a person stateless’.

The Court of Appeal ([2012] EWCA Civ 358) ultimately found that, according to Iraqi law, Mr Al-Jedda automatically lost his Iraqi citizenship when he was granted British citizenship in 2000, and that he had not automatically regained his original nationality, either under the Transitional Administration Law promoted by the Occupying Powers, or under Iraq’s 2006 Nationality Law.

The Secretary of State nevertheless contended that, if it were open to the person concerned to apply for citizenship in another State, and if that application would necessarily be granted, then it would not be her order that made him stateless, but his own failure to apply for that other citizenship. The Supreme Court reviewed the relevant international law on nationality and statelessness, as well as the domestic implementation of the provisions on deprivation, and noted that the United Kingdom had recently adopted guidelines and revised Immigration Rules to deal with stateless persons seeking to remain.

The Court subjected the premise underlying the Secretary of State’s argument to rigorous scrutiny, finding it very close to unrealistic (§§23, 25). As the Court of Appeal had indulged the Secretary of State by allowing her to advance the premise, the Supreme Court was prepared to do the same. However, it categorically rejected the suggestion that Mr Al-Jedda’s putative statelessness was of his own making (§32). Though the ‘inquiry may prove complex’, the question finally was a simple one: Did the person concerned hold another nationality at the date of the order of deprivation? Mr Al-Jedda did not, and to allow an alternative interpretation, namely, the possibility of acquiring or reacquiring a nationality, ‘would mire the application of the subsection in deeper complexity’; it was ‘a gloss as substantial as it [was] unwarranted’ (§33).
The full judgment can be read here: www.supremecourt.gov.uk/decided-cases/docs/UKSC_2012_0129_Judgment.pdf

LurkingHusband · 08/07/2016 16:06

p.s, if you can read legalese ( The Court subjected the premise underlying the Secretary of State’s argument to rigorous scrutiny, finding it very close to unrealistic (§§23, 25). As the Court of Appeal had indulged the Secretary of State by allowing her to advance the premise, the Supreme Court was prepared to do the same ), that judgement is effectively a "FUCK YOU" to Theresa May. No wonder she is so down on courts and judges - they are so finicky about the law.

motherinferior · 08/07/2016 16:06

Leadsom is marginally more terrifying than May on account of being more swivel-eyed and inexperienced.

I may be wrong, though. Neither of them exactly fire me with enthused delight but then to be fair a Tory leader was never going to have the Inferiority Complex all bedecked with bunting and fireworks.

StrictlyMumDancing · 08/07/2016 16:08

Wrt the nazi's hating the intellectuals...
We watched Captain America on referendum day. A line stuck with me:
So many people forget the first country the nazis invaded was their own
It has really stuck with me Sad

StrictlyMumDancing · 08/07/2016 16:10

On another note I happened to see the headline on The Sun earlier. 'Here come the girls'. I wanted to punch it in the face, though sadly a newspaper doesn't have a face.

RedToothBrush · 08/07/2016 16:17

I'm frightened. Genuinely.

Godwin is very, very appropriate.

LurkingHusband · 08/07/2016 16:19

Incidentally, notice the nasty, nasty "logic" behind T.Mays assertion. It's not her fault he is becoming stateless. It's his own fault for failing to become a citizen elsewhere.

Sound familiar ?

It's not our fault you are homeless because we have taken your benefits. It's your own fault for not working.

gamerwidow · 08/07/2016 16:26

May I think she has more experience and made a reasonably good job of the hardest job in cabinet.
There both far to right wing and poor on human rights for me to really like but I think May is the best of a bad bunch.

Floisme · 08/07/2016 16:31

I think we underestimate Leadsome at our peril. When Thatcher first stood for leadership in 1975, very few took her seriously. Heath was believed to have strong cabinet support and he also had most of the tory press behind him, even though he'd recently lost a general election.

And like Leadsome, Thatcher only talked about the economy in vague soundbites. She played the 'I'm just a housewife' card to great effect, while all the time having a hotline to Milton Friedman.

I don't know enough about conservative party members to call this one.

MangoMoon · 08/07/2016 16:43

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

So the state has been repressing the truth about the EU & its ills then a la Goebbels?
So that we wouldn't find out the truth about their political, economic & military end goals.

Thank goodness enough of us saw through the charade in time to thwart the emergence of the EU superstate.

Wink
LurkingHusband · 08/07/2016 16:43

It does feel like after the immigrants, the educated and liberal middle class is next.

Next ? We're already there. We already live in an age where facts are immaterial - after all it's what you feel that matters (I note with interest the growing discussion over "trans issues" which are pushing that very agenda ...). Notice how - irrespective of the facts of EU immigration - the majority of people voted on how they felt. (And we're back to Goebbels upthread).

Academic ability, and "knowing stuff" are derided and treated - openly with suspicion.

A couple of years ago, I was paying for my shopping at Sainsburys. They were running a "round it up" charity at the tills, so I told the checkout operator (a part time student) I'd like to round it up. The bill came to (say) £xx.69.

Her: "How much would you like to add ?"
Me (instantly): "how about ... 31 pence, please?"
(Beep, beep)
Her: "Wow, that's lucky, you guessed enough make it £xx !!!"
Me: (smiling) "No luck, just did it in my head."
Her: (frowning) "You lying ? No one can do that."

I was just about to reply, when the person behind me in the queue told me not to lie and confuse people, and admit I was lucky. So I acted all shamefaced, admitted my lie, and took peoples compliments for a good wind-up (because "we Brits love to laugh at ourselves").

LurkingHusband · 08/07/2016 16:44

When Thatcher first stood for leadership in 1975, very few took her seriously. Heath was believed to have strong cabinet support and he also had most of the tory press behind him, even though he'd recently lost a general election.

I thought Thatcher was elected on an "anyone but Heath" sentiment ? The grandees of the Tory party reckoning they'd get rid of her before 1979.

Floisme · 08/07/2016 16:54

As I remember it (and I was, ahem, pretty young at the time) Heath wasn't popular but when Whitelaw refused to stand against him, he (Heath) was generally believed to be a shoo in. He seemed to have all he heavy weights behind him and Thatcher was seen as a bit of a joke, until she won that first ballot.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 08/07/2016 16:59

I'm not underestimating Leadsom, quite the opposite, I recognise what she stands for and it scares me.

It's something I thought was extinct.

LurkingHusband · 08/07/2016 17:02

I remember Thatcher becoming leader in 1975. We used to have a "Topic" session in [Middle] school where the class briefly discussed current events. (In a testment to my "weird memory" (MrsLH !) I can remember the teachers name and the pupil who answered when the question )

"Does anyone know who Mrs Thatcher is ?" was asked. I was beaten to it by a girl call Rachael who then got to answer the next question ... "..and why is this important news ?". The answer was "because she could be Britains first lady Prime Minister".

I have a lovely glow now of remembering how strange it was that grown-ups thought it odd a woman should be Prime Minister. But then all my teachers were women ....

Floisme · 08/07/2016 17:02

I don't think it'll ever be extinct. It's not just her, it's the people behind her. I think they've been waiting a long time and they see this as their moment.

ChardonnayKnickertonSmythe · 08/07/2016 17:04

It clearly isn't.

What can we do?

Floisme · 08/07/2016 17:04

I remember that first ballot (where she knocked out Heath) very well because I had that exact same, 'fuck me, where's she come from?' feeling that I have now.

TheElementsSong · 08/07/2016 17:27

What can we do?

There's nothing we can do, is there Sad? As it is I'm surprised we have managed some discussion of AL's appeal to the hide-bound, right wing, homophobic, xenophobic and close-minded grassroots of the Tory party. I'm half expecting the accusations of ageism or sneering intellectualism to start flying Hmm.

RedToothBrush · 08/07/2016 17:37

We won't be able to soon. Everything we say and do will monitored on line if AL gets her way.

I guess we'll be labelled as a threat.

Inkanta · 08/07/2016 17:41

It should be a Brexit MP. I think it should be Andrea for sure.

tangerino · 08/07/2016 17:44

I would prefer Theresa May, hateful though she is.

Leadsom looks like she's be out of her depth campaigning to chair the local Rotary club. However I have a terrible fear that she'll appeal to members with her DM/Express whinges about political correctness etc. And given that everything that can go wrong is going wrong at the moment....

larrygrylls · 08/07/2016 17:49

Theresa May,

Steady and solid and I feel that she and Merckel will get on, which is absolutely vital now.

StrictlyMumDancing · 08/07/2016 18:01

It does feel like after the immigrants, the educated and liberal middle class is next.

Totally agree with LH's points on this. You don't really have to look much further than these own threads to see it. Comments like needing to listen to people and not asking them questions, just accepting things show it. How can you learn if you don't ask questions where you don't understand - oh, you're not meant to learn.

DoinItFine · 08/07/2016 18:12

Brexit encouraged an eruption of nasty nativism

Here's a great article from the Spectator about how different things seem post-Brexit and how Andrea Leadsom is part of that.

Perhaps it is beginning to dawn on Leavers that they have encouraged something rather dreadful, a grubby nativism that, though always present, was previously considered awfully infra dig.

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