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Brexit

Teresa May or Andrea Leadsom?

511 replies

Toofondofcake · 07/07/2016 16:36

So without starting anything too politically fraught I wonder if people would share with me who they prefer for conservative leadership out of the two.

The race is now down to them and so we will have a female PM again!

Opinions?

OP posts:
2016Hopeful · 08/07/2016 11:33

May - she will be the best person to negotiate us out of this mess.

Farage and BNP supporting Leadsom is enough to put me off without the CV thing.

Alisvolatpropiis · 08/07/2016 11:38

On channel 4 news last night they were in a Tory constituency and the members interview were all talking about unity and unifying the country. Which makes me think that their choice will be May come the membership vote.

ThereMustBeACatch · 08/07/2016 11:42

my feeling is that May is talking tough now so as to out-tough Leadsom and woo the more -swivel-eyed-- rightwing Tories; but that, if appointed, she'll actually be more moderate.

Maybe she'd change as PM, but Theresa May's track record does not point to her being a moderate. She said that Article 8 of the ECHR (right to a family life) was a 'qualified right', and by gosh she has made it one. If a British citizen earns less than £18,600 a year they do not have the right to fall in love with and live in their home country with a non-EU (soon to be any non-UK!) citizen. I can completely and utterly see her sending home every EU citizen in this country and tearing apart further lives and families as she has already done. And that's trivial compared to the snooper's charter, her long-expressed desire to be rid of the ECHR, etc.

And Lurking is very right about her lying. I will never, ever forgive her for skewing public opinion regarding family immigration with a bare-faced lie about a terrorist and his pet cat. Utterly cold-blooded in the face of the actual, loving families her immigration policies were forcing apart, and the British citizens essentially having to choose between exile from their home country or separation from their spouse.

In spite of that, fucking hell, I think she would be 'better' than Leadsom. But it makes me sick to my stomach that this woman, with her demonstrated lack of human compassion, could be PM of this country. Not in my name.

caitlinohara · 08/07/2016 12:16

Prize for clutching at most straws goes to lurking! Smile

caitlinohara · 08/07/2016 12:16

Or should that be least straws? Confused

SapphireStrange · 08/07/2016 12:21

Catch, I don't disagree with any of that.

Just like Brexit generally, I don't see any very happy outcomes here.

LurkingHusband · 08/07/2016 12:33

The problem with human rights - like oxygen - is they are taken for granted. There are a few litmus tests for idiots, but one is anyone who says " don't deserve human rights." or it's corollary "What about the rights of the victims ?" is demonstrating they have no understanding of what they are talking about* and are not interesting in knowing why. Best avoided I find.

As the referendum clearly showed, there are a lot of idiots with a vote. It would be childs play for a totalitarian regime to engineer for us to give up our human rights, whilst firing up the gas chambers.

Some of our parents came from countries where "human rights" were for other people. It's not a pretty place.

Millyonthefloss2 · 08/07/2016 12:48

Milly
"I'm not a big fan of Theresa May's ultra cautious style. (example - she won't say yet that all EU nationals here already can stay.) I think that is both morally wrong and bad for families and businesses".

Aerfan
Why do you want the future British PM to commit when the EU hasnt yet committed to allowing British nationals to remain in the EU? May is absolutely right to be cautious. You dont just make a promise without extracting something in return. Good job youre not leading the negotiations hey!

I want May to commit to it now because it is the right thing to do. And it is necessary in order to put a stop to racist nonsense and family and business uncertainty.
Brexit should be a civilised negotiation between friendly nations - not ransom demands more suited to a criminal gang.
We are not going to throw anyone out and neither are the EU countries. It is illegal anyway. Let's make that clear now. May is behaving worse than Leadsom or Gove or Farage talking about Leadsom "wanting to give residency rights to foreign criminals" etc. I can't believe how forgiving Mumsnet is to May on this issue.

RockandRollsuicide · 08/07/2016 13:00

Brexit should be a civilised negotiation between friendly nations - not ransom demands more suited to a criminal gang

I wonder if we have become de senistised to it? The EU project is cold blooded in shifting cheap work forces to the wealthier nations - pure commodity. Then we had Merkel and Turkey Human exchange program.

The human side of immigration is never discussed in the social, quality of life sense, but always framed in a " we need mass migration for money money money".

FlushingNotBlushing · 08/07/2016 13:09

Everytime I look at AL, I see Ken Livingstone Shock

LurkingHusband · 08/07/2016 13:15

Brexit should be a civilised negotiation between friendly nations

Says who ? (looks at the detailed "How Brexit will work" document issued during the referendum).

No, it's not in there at all.

- not ransom demands more suited to a criminal gang.

er, when it comes to behaving like a criminal gang, the UK has form. Ask the Chagossians

We are not going to throw anyone out

Where does it say that #' (looks at the detailed "How Brexit will work" document issued during the referendum).

and neither are the EU countries.

Er, we're back to one of my fundamental problems with Brexiteers in general. A slightly hectoring insistence that other people will do x,y and z. Will they ? And if they don't ?

It is illegal anyway

Not if you make the laws. Bear in mind (again) the Tories have form for making the illegal legal - retrospectively if needs be. I really would hang my hat on that.

W8woman · 08/07/2016 13:44

The thought of Andrea becoming PM - and of the people her leadership will empower, both politicians and members of the public - chills my blood.

I could weep for what these bored pensioners and low-life jeremy kyle contestants have done to our country and our economy.

Millyonthefloss2 · 08/07/2016 13:49

Booting people out is illegal under the Vienna Convention.
What is more, it is morally wrong. And it is bad for everyone living in the UK at this time. Either May does not realise that or she has such a peculiar personality type that is willing to enter a negotiation with a threat up her sleeve - ignoring basic rights and wrongs.

wooflesgoestotown · 08/07/2016 13:54

Some of our parents came from countries where "human rights" were for other people. It's not a pretty place.

Totally agree. I might feel TM is the lesser of 2 evils in this context but (if she wins) we need to watch her very very carefully.

putthehamsterbackinitscage · 08/07/2016 14:12

Thanks Lurker

I did say not aware Sad and it seems neither candidate is totally honest ....

Can't vote anyway and if I could, couldn't vote neither so I think we may as well say we 're all buggered anyway....

I would love to see changes that made it illegal for politicians to deliberately mislead, but then again the country would be very quiet if that was the case....

LurkingHusband · 08/07/2016 14:51

Booting people out is illegal under the Vienna Convention.

So ? Remember Theresa May is on record as wanting the UK to withdraw from the European Convention of Human Rights, so what's another convention to withdraw from ?

What is more, it is morally wrong.

Lots of things are morally wrong. Doesn't stop governments of any stripe doing them. If that's all we have to prevent people being mistreated and abused, then God help us all.

And it is bad for everyone living in the UK at this time.

Remember you are dealing with a politician who signed up to austerity which we were told would be bad for everyone living in the UK at this time. "All in this together" ? Although this does raise a fascinating - and genuine - question as to how far you could stitch the man in the street up in the name of Brexit, before they squealed ?

Either May does not realise that or she has such a peculiar personality type that is willing to enter a negotiation with a threat up her sleeve - ignoring basic rights and wrongs.

Politics has fuck all to do with right and wrong and everything to do with convincing people it's about right and wrong.

LurkingHusband · 08/07/2016 14:54

Booting people out is illegal under the Vienna Convention.

edited to add

Once again, ask the Chagossians : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chagossians

They can never go home Sad.

(I have to say that as discussion fora go, I love the 1990s vibe Mumsnet has. Editing posts, threaded discussions, blocking posters are such a distraction to the cut and thrust of debate).

RedToothBrush · 08/07/2016 15:22

faerising.wordpress.com/2016/07/07/coming-soon-our-reactionary-first-minister/

Comparison of Cameron / May / Leadsom on voting

Conclusion Cameron is positively a liberal socialist compared to the other too. Leadsom is way to the right of May. Particularly on human rights.

Cleo1303 · 08/07/2016 15:29

Cameron is a liberal socialist and that is why he lost so many voters to UKIP. If we had PR there would be a number of UKIP MPs in the House of Commons.

Theresa May has backtracked on so many issues she can't be trusted.

I canvassed and leafleted before the Referendum and it's clear that the Leave voters were very impressed by Andrea Leadsom in the debates. They were all saying they hadn't heard of her before but thought she was great.

The majority of Conservative MPs wanted to remain but their local associations didn't necessarily agree with them. If they want a Brexit PM they will be voting for Leadsom.

LurkingHusband · 08/07/2016 15:34

Human Rights will always be a source of conflict to any totalitarian regime. That is a regime which places the state above the individual.

Both communism and fascism are centred around a dogma that the citizen is merely a cog in the greater good of the Mother/Father land. To that end, nobodies piddling rights - whether it's to life, equal treatment, family, privacy must be allowed to get in the way.

I make no apologies for risking Godwin, but Goebbels really did write the playbook on how to make the turkeys vote for Christmas.

How about:

If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the greatest enemy of the State.

?

or

There was no point in seeking to convert the intellectuals. For intellectuals would never be converted and would anyway always yield to the **er, and this will always be "the man in the street." Arguments must therefore be crude, clear and forcible, and appeal to emotions and instincts, not the intellect. Truth was unimportant and entirely subordinate to tactics and psychology.

or

Not every item of news should be published. Rather must those who control news policies endeavor to make every item of news serve a certain purpose.

Remember: The Nazis hated intellectuals.

LurkingHusband · 08/07/2016 15:36

One idly speculates whether the Tories could end up with a grassroots popular/MP unpopular leader ?

BreakingDad77 · 08/07/2016 15:38

Booting people out is illegal under the Vienna Convention

I thought this was not as clear cut as people think, and dependent on what deals are made as to whether people will need to seek residency from with the UK? or leave and apply?, would your employer do it, will it need an interview? Immigration will be snowed under and you'd hope your temporary visa doesn't run out before your real visa is processed!?

I had a quick google www.euroweeklynews.com/3.0.15/news/on-euro-weekly-news/world-news/137602-brexit,-a-view-from-a-qc-specialising-in-eu-law

and www.connexionfrance.com/Vienna-Convention-1969-expats-rights-residence-Brexit-17867-view-article.html

From looking at how that might affect our expats that doesn't look confidence inspiring for EU people here.

On the morally wrong recently we have been taking money off disabled people and giving well off ones tax breaks...... So as LH says dont set your hopes high.

TheElementsSong · 08/07/2016 15:46

Scarily appropriate words Lurking Sad

RedToothBrush · 08/07/2016 15:58

Lurking an article has appeared in the Sun this week about where I live attacking it for being middle class.

This worries me hugely.

The story is widely different to what was reported locally and elsewhere. It is Brexit related and deliberately plays down the economy side of the story.

It does feel like after the immigrants, the educated and liberal middle class is next.