Should we guarantee the rights of eu citzens to remain unilaterally

[ReallyTired]

I think we should. They came here with the belief that they could live here.

I suppose the argument is that Spain and France may not show compassion to British citizens who have emigrated. Certainly Spain may well be tempted to use it as leverage to gain sovernity of Gibraltar. I think the chances of the French being vindictive is less.

If Scotland leaves the uk and joins the EU could there be an arrangement where ex pats become Scottish citizens? (Even if they are 100% English or Welsh) in the event of British citizens being sent back?

What is Aerfen's obsession about race?!? Bloody hell, it's like being back in 30s Germany again!!!

Move on, Aerfen. It's 2016! Nobody cares! Don't worry - us worldly, global citizens with DNA spanning several continents won't discriminate against your village roots.

She is going to give us [her] best shot

Let's hope it's on on the foot. Or friendly fire. :)

She is going to give us her best shot.

She's a liar like the rest of them:

Theresa May's voting record

Ups, it should have said

"Let's hope it's NOT on the foot"

Foxy said
"Anglo Saxons make up 10-40% of DNA in nearly half of all modern Brits"

No you misread that:
"The majority of eastern, central and southern England is made up of a single, relatively homogeneous, genetic group with a significant DNA contribution from Anglo-Saxon migrations (10-40% of total ancestry). This settles a historical controversy in showing that the Anglo-Saxons intermarried with, rather than replaced, the existing populations"

"But basically the findings suggest that the most "indigenous" people in the UK are not the English, but the Welsh"
This is correct, but all native Britons are nevertheless largely indigenous with Anglo saxon admix affecting only those people whose ancestry lies in parts of England.

And bear in mind that the Anglo saxon migrants arrived well over a millenium ago and when Britain and most of Europe was still tribal. How far back would you demand people go to prove isolated ancestry in the same homeland in order to "qualify" to call oneself 'indigenous?

God only knows what migration wars and admix was going on in the New World a thousand years before first contact or how long any of their tribal popualtions were "isolated" without admix. In fact while Indigenous American genetics are a fascinating subject its also become a VERY thorny issue

"To many tribal people, having a scientist come in from the outside looking to tell them where they’re “really” from is not only uninteresting, but threatening. “We know who we are as a people, as an indigenous people, why would we be so interested in where scientists think our genetic ancestors came from?”"

Understandable that they are worried when people like you want to set the bar of 'purity' and settlement so high that they may not "qualify" either!

The racism is coming not from those who demand our ancestry be acknowledged and respected but from those who have an agenda to devalue it, and deny that right.

Aerfen

Can you stop talking about your "indigenousness" please? It makes you sound more and more like a BNP member! The fact is that there are - I quote - few communities in the world that are sufficiently inbred to be able to confer upon themselves the dubious honour of being "pure-bred".

Which is good. We all know that being inbred is not a great trait to have! Unless you've been stuck in a cave for the last few decades, you may have noticed that the more genetically diverse now tend to be more successful in the arts, sports and academia, despite them only representing a small percentage of the overall UK population.

How the hell do you get that I misread that? I think it basically says the same thing.

"The racism is coming not from those who demand our ancestry be acknowledged and respected but from those who have an agenda to devalue it, and deny that right."

Aww diddums, I deny your right to have your ancestry respected, because you are not using it for anything other than a cover for bigoted racism. Who is oppressing you? Who is denying you opportunity?

No one.

You are using "ancestry" as a reason to deny others the right to settle or come to the country, its a cover story for your iniquitous values.

Ohhh Aerfen is Voldemort and I claim my £5!

"Can you stop talking about your "indigenousness" please? It makes you sound more and more like a BNP member! The fact is that there are - I quote - few communities in the world that are sufficiently inbred to be able to confer upon themselves the dubious honour of being "pure-bred".

'Indigenous' and 'pure bred' are not synonyms. THAT is precisely my point. We do not have to reach the high bar of purity that Brit haters claim we do in order to 'qualify' to be 'indigenous'.

I will talk about whatever I like and use the word indigenous as I consider appropriate Snowy! Since when has it become an 'offensive' word?
Nobody forces you to use it!

"You are using "ancestry" as a reason to deny others the right to settle or come to the country, its a cover story for your iniquitous values."

Yes I am, every country does to a greater or lesser degree, most countries offer citizenship by 'descent' , the 'grandparent rule' used by many countries to grant citizenship to foreign born of the indigenous ethnic group.

Many countries deny citizenship to foreign settlers, or make it difficult. Snowy's homeland Germany for example sets a much higher bar than Britain does, and I'll bet Snowy, for all her bleating, has taken full advantage of 'ancestry' to get German citizenship for her British born kids, something which you and I , lacking German ancestry, are not entitled to do.

Anyway bye for now.!

Aerfen

I'm sort of laughing about your post . I don't think about "ancestry" the way you do. As mentioned, my ancestors came from many countries and continents. Identifying myself through them would just be way too confusing! For me, it's only citizenship that counts. Nothing else. I have a bit of Spanish in my bloodline (great-grandparents or so), but I don't have Spanish citizenship and my Spanish isn't great, so I don't identify as Spanish. That's just one of many identities I could have, if I look at my "descent". I could even be Chinese at a push, but seriously?! Never spent time there, don't speak the language, so why should I?!

Yes, my kids will get German passports, too, although they will (genetically speaking) be way more British than German or Spanish or anything that I am. I never think about me passing on my "heritage" to my kids. Instead, I'm passing on one practical thing: citizenship (however many I have).

As an EU citizen, you could have moved to Germany, lived there for a while and get German citizenship. Same as here, really. Kids born in Germany have the right to German citizenship. I can adopt a child and that child will be German, too!

Why on Earth do you think it's that much more difficult than in the UK?!

You can be proud of having mostly British ancestry without spilling hatred and xenophobic beliefs all over your posts.
At the end of the day are British citizens , and not just those British citizens that are indigenous, the ones that have a say on immigration.
There is not need to call Romanians parasites.
There is not need to tell people to go home, not when they have been settle here for many years . But specially not those that are already naturalised British or married to a British Partner with British children.
Being indigenous does not make someone legally anymore British than the rest of British citizens, neither makes someone a xenophobic.

Snowbells - very well articulated. That's very much the way I feel.

Fortunately Scotland is my home and has been since I was 3, so I am most proud of being - and feeling - Scottish I just hope we can eventually get a passport that reflects that citizenship

As far as I am aware, very few countries have a "grandparent" rule for citizenship - Ireland is one of the few exceptions.

I could re-acquire South African citizenship if I wanted - and even pass it on to ds if he wanted but he says he'd prefer to play rugby for Scotland I love South Africa but in no way do I feel South African.

Unfortunately, I wouldn't be able to get German, Danish or Australian citizenship as none of them has grand-parent rules - and although Ireland allows grandparents (hence the massive surge in applications - to the extent that they're asking people to hold off applying so that they can deal with the backlog and print more forms), my ancestry is further back than that. Not would I be able to get an "English" passport (if one were to exist, using the same rules as British citizenship) as my closest Englishness is via my grandmother

"I don't think about "ancestry" the way you do. As mentioned, my ancestors came from many countries and continents. Identifying myself through them would just be way too confusing! For me, it's only citizenship that counts"

That's OK youre mixed ethnicity and dont feel rooted anywhere but just accept that most people are not ethnically mixed and are indigenous to a particular corner of the world , and have a right to be acknowledged as such. It's not only tribal people are indigenous, nations can be indigenous too, indeed most are, and we have our homelands where our ancestors have lived since time immemorial. Why do you feel the need to be offensive about it?

As far as I am aware, very few countries have a "grandparent" rule for citizenship - Ireland is one of the few exception

Its very common Switzerland, Germany, Poland, Italy, Britain, Israel , India, Egyot, Greece, to name but a few.

A further point is that many countries reserve certain jobs only for their own citizens, which means that recently arrived immigrants cannot take them or be promoted to them

Germany is one of these countries, with its "Beamte" a status basically given to most in public sector jobs beyond entry level.

Of course this is fiercely racist as although Germany does now allow dual citizenship not every immigrant's country does. Also the process of obtaining citizenship in Germany is significantly harder than here. Many ignorant Brits who advocate Britain taking a generous line with everyone who wants to come here, have simply no idea how other countries are playing by very different rules to the advantage of their native people.

You really don't get it: ethnicity is not the same as ancestry.

I'm starting to think that you're acting like a troll because you steadfastly refuse to accept that there is a difference

On the plus side, it is attitudes like yours which remind more reasonable people that they need to continue to guard against not just explicit racism but implicit racism.

I voted leave and I was very clear what I was voting for. I want a points system of immigration and I hope that everyone here without British citizenship will have to apply for leave to stay or a work permit.
If that means that British citizens living abroad have to do the same in their adopted country, then so be it.

Tryingtosaveup, you voted for that? Who actually promised that exactly? How on earth did you come to the conclusion that the point system is what you voted for? Can't you see now that whatever was said about a point system were just ideas? Proposals? Statements - and it is not what the referendum question was about?

All the people calling for a points system, where do you stand on EU nationals who have lived, worked and paid taxes here their entire adult life, married British citizens, raised British children, but are now retired?

How many points do pensioners get? After all, they're not exactly 'contributing' are they. (Although they've certainly contributed a fuck-load more than many 'indigenous' British citizens.)

Are they 'drains' and 'parasites' too? (Such charming, totally neutral language by the way.) I ask as this group encompasses some very dear family members.

This thread is starting to read like the comments under articles about immigration in the DM

Blue4ever, please read my post again. No, read it for the first time.
I said I was clear what I voted for. ( note the full stop).
I then said in a separate sentence that I hope for a points system. I did not say I was promised it. Nor did I say I voted for it.
I HOPE that everyone without British citizenship has to :
get British citizenship,
obtain leave to remain,
Get a work permit.
Have I made it a bit clearer Blue?

Aerfen

You don't know what you are talking about, don't you...

Germany is one of these countries, with its "Beamte" a status basically given to most in public sector jobs beyond entry level. Of course this is fiercely racist as although Germany does now allow dual citizenship not every immigrant's country does.

Wrong move. My father was a "Beamte". It's basically what a "civil servant" is in the UK. This all has to do with citizenship - no "racism" behind it. Such jobs are available to Germans and... wait for it... all EU citizens. Similarly, civil servants in the UK must be either British, EEA nationals (for now) or Commonwealth citizens.

Obviously, Germany does not form part of the "Commonwealth".

There's nothing "racist" behind it. It's all about citizenship - NOT race. There are plenty of people with Turkish backgrounds who can call themselves a "Beamte".

Also the process of obtaining citizenship in Germany is significantly harder than here. Many ignorant Brits who advocate Britain taking a generous line with everyone who wants to come here, have simply no idea how other countries are playing by very different rules to the advantage of their native people.

Huh? You can read this British guy's account of becoming a German citizen published last year in the Telegraph. All the steps he had to go through, I had to do here in the UK. Language test (if you haven't studied in the UK), citizenship exam (which none of my British friends could pass)... and all the f*cking paperwork that comes along with it.

You think it's "easy" to become a British citizen. But maybe it's because you never had to become a citizen of the UK, you actually don't know what the process is?