Should we guarantee the rights of eu citzens to remain unilaterally

[ReallyTired]

I think we should. They came here with the belief that they could live here.

I suppose the argument is that Spain and France may not show compassion to British citizens who have emigrated. Certainly Spain may well be tempted to use it as leverage to gain sovernity of Gibraltar. I think the chances of the French being vindictive is less.

If Scotland leaves the uk and joins the EU could there be an arrangement where ex pats become Scottish citizens? (Even if they are 100% English or Welsh) in the event of British citizens being sent back?

Also the process of obtaining citizenship in Germany is significantly harder than here

it takes six years to get citizenship here! and you have to have permanant residence first, so basically if you've been self employed or a student (or generally tried to better yourself or support yourself/be an employer) you don't qualify!

Yes, Adulting!

Maybe Aerfen should look at the government's Become a British citizen site.

Google is your friend.

Tryingtosaveup

It's all fine wanting people to get the British citizenship, etc. But getting the British citizenship can be expensive for people who don't just have up to GBP1,500+ lying around. See, they'd have to try to save up.

I hope you'll give them time to save at least?

"I HOPE that everyone without British citizenship has to :
get British citizenship,
obtain leave to remain,
Get a work permit."

This is the thing about leavers, you all hoped for such different things.

In reality no one will have to get citizenship, or apply for the right to remain, or get a work permit. It will just be granted.

Immigration won't go down, we can expect it to continue at around the same average rate it has since 2004.

You really don't get it: ethnicity is not the same as ancestry.
I'm starting to think that you're acting like a troll because you steadfastly refuse to accept that there is a difference confused

And where did I say it was the "same"? I didnt.
So another tedious red herring...

"This is the thing about leavers, you all hoped for such different things."

Yes so did Bremainers. Most of them hoped to cut immigration but were too frightened to vote Brexit! Some of them want to destroy Britain and form a United States of Europe, others just imagine the EU will go on muddling along as it is.

And of course people always hope for different things, at every election and between them. We dont all agree. We dont all think the same. I know there are plenty of self righteous twonks who think everyone should agree with them, but the world isnt like that.

"Adulting"

it takes six years to get citizenship here! and you have to have permanant residence first, so basically if you've been self employed or a student (or generally tried to better yourself or support yourself/be an employer) you don't qualify!

I didnt say it was "easy" to get British citizenship but its easier than German!

Snowy

RE: Becoming a Beamter

Of course you are right that now, theoretically an EU citizen
can become Beamter (of course that doenst apply to NON EU immigrants).
In practice however that doenst appear to be easy.

I note a discussion by foriegn teachers iN Germany:

Posted 11 Jan 2008
No, we can't Kato. There may be no official line on it but it's a fact that only German teachers (and you are right, not many of those either) can have Beamte status. All my German colleagues have told me this and it's well known in the teaching world anyway. Friends of mine (who are teachers but not German) are involved in the fight for equal recognition and more pay which has been going on for more than 20 years here.

Actually found something that says technically we can have Beamte status but only when there is no German teacher who can do the job (and as there are too many teachers and too few jobs, that's unlikely)

www.toytowngermany.com/forum/topic/84961-salary-scale-for-secondary-teachers-in-germany/

How the hell Germany has managed to wangle that one to favour their own in the light of EU law God knows, but whatever wriggle room theyve found we should be doing the same in Britain!

I doubt you'll find many remainers that had either of the goals you identified in it.

The Brexit camp were a disparate group of voters each with wildly different interests, meeting one groups interests will lead to another's not being met.

You, and your rabid anti immigration agenda will not get met at all.

In fact as a remainer, you are far more likely to have your agenda met, still have access to the EU markets, still be under EU legislation for some things, still have access to EU university programmes and funding etc etc.

I doubt you'll find many remainers that had either of the goals you identified in it.

And I have no doubt that you are wrong (although I mentioned three different 'hopes' while the word 'either' suggests just two). Most Bremain voters for example would love to see immigration cut, but either blame our own Government not the EU, or feel its a price they can accept in return for membership. Its only extreme hard core pro immigrationists who actually think 600K people migrating here every year is champion idea!

Of course we're guessing as to numbers but certainly theyre every bit as disparate, some right wingers, some left, some ethnic British some ethnic minorities, though probably nearly all the EU immigrants who could vote.

I think if you were desperate to see immigration cut you voted to leave, I don't think you'll find many in the remain camp who were desperate to see immigration cut.

Oh and since when have 600k people migrated here? EU immigration is nowhere near that figure. But then you've never been good at using any of the information accurately have you?

Are you sure you are comfortable here? I really think the Britain first talk boards might be more your thing.

Net migration figure grom EU was 180k.

from not grom.

Net no EU migration (the one we can control) was 188,000.

Its never been anywhere near 600,000.

But then our esteemed poster has a tenuous grasp of the facts.

Aerfen

What you might not understand is that the "Beamte" status as they apply to teachers is sort of controversial anyway. Plus, I think there's something else at play.

Having "Beamte" status basically guarantees you a job for life and more money. I understand that doesn't quite exist in the UK. This resulted in problems at schools because you literally could not fire a bad teacher. All you could do was shift them to another school! Personally, I don't think teachers should receive "Beamte" status. Ever. And I'm not the only person with German citizenship who thinks that. It's unsustainable to give them all that status.

Regardless of my views, teachers who aren't "verbeamtet" make up about 1/4 of the entire teacher's population. Some areas no longer give that status to teachers at all (whether German or not), while some areas where there is more demand for teachers use it to entice people to move there. I know some teachers from the UK and the US who teach at German schools, some of them did gain that status - BUT they studied in Germany, too... which I think is very important.

Before I went to university in the UK, my father asked me specifically what job I wanted to do afterwards. He was well aware that a degree from a non-German university could close doors to certain jobs in Germany (including some that led to "Beamte" status, incl. teaching). At university, a fellow German who got a first class degree in politics told me that, ironically, she would be unable to get a job in diplomacy back in Germany... because she didn't follow the 'route' that led to those jobs. Very likely, the discrimination you are talking about is not based on citizenship, but whether those people followed the expected route/training (which is often only possible if you went to university in Germany) or not. I would be discriminated against in the same manner because I didn't go to university there, and I have German citizenship! You hear similar stories about the teaching profession in France.

From friends who did become teachers in Germany vs. friends who became teachers here, I have to say the German route - especially if you're aiming for Gymnasium level teaching - seems more rigorous, meaning it is possible to say that the other qualification is not enough. On top of that, it also depends on which federal state you live in! Each one has different requirements.

In a way, you can compare it to the way PhD applications are seen in the US. Here in the UK, you can get a 4-year MSc degree as a first degree and then do a PhD. In the US, you do a 4-year Bachelors degree, a 2-year Masters degree and then a PhD. I have friends that tried to go from a 4-year MSc in the UK straight to a PhD in the US. Didn't work. The US university didn't acknowledge that MSc as their version of an MSc. They had to gain a 2-year Masters degree in the US before being allowed to do a PhD.

... and the only reason I know about this teaching stuff is because quite a few of my schoolmates and relatives who abandoned their dreams of being a journalists, artists etc. ended up being teachers in Germany

In the case of my relative (German citizen)... she had a freakin' PhD from Sorbonne in France and had to retrain in Germany for years to have a shot at being a teacher!

Thats interesting Snowy, but it doesnt alter the fact that in practice Germany is indirectly discriminating in favour of German citizens , albeit a small number of Germans also fall through the net. In the EU indirect discrimination isn't supposd to happen either. This is another example of Britain NOT putting up the kinds of barriers to immigrants that other EU countries do (and yes I agree France, although it doesnt to my knowledge have an equivalent to the Beamter, does favour its own). Britain historically hasnt needed to do so because our borders have been better protected by a 'moat', while continental European countries have always been more porous.

You shouldnt compare to the US because the US isn't subject to EU law and are free to advantage their own citzens as much as they wish.

Re: Beamter teachers. I see no reason why teachers should be singled out to be deprived of this special status any more than any other civil servant. Arguably nobody should be guaranteed a 'job for life'.

smallfox2002 Wed 13-Jul-16 22:58:31
Net no EU migration (the one we can control) was 188,000.
Its never been anywhere near 600,000.
But then our esteemed poster has a tenuous grasp of the facts

Its you that lacks grasp of the facts, as well as apparently no understanding of the difference between gross and net immigration

Net is a largely meaningless term to apply to immigration, and a deliberately misleading figure put out by our Government to disguise the scale of the problem. Youre certainly not the only member of the public to be fooled by it!

You see, its the difference between the estimated number of people who came here to settle and the estimated number of people who have left (and yes that number is just estimated, there is no little man at each entry point counting them in and out).

Do you see the problems with this? Firstly it means that if 600,000 Brits happened to emigrate one year then theoretically we would have zero immigration ! Secondly it assumes we are exchanging like for like, when in fact we are exchanging apples for pears. There is no meaningful figure given by the stats that mean we lost five skilled native British professionals and three tradesmen plus two Indian doctors who returned home and in return we got a Romanian dentist a Polish plumber ten barristas from failing EU states and eight non Eu burger tossers.

Immigration and emigration are two entirely separate processes and cannot be 'offset' against each other!

Or perhaps you are one of the naive who imagined 'net immigration' equals 'immigrants arrived' minus 'immigrants departed'!
Sadly it doesn't.

Aerfen

Here's the thing: for qualifications to be completely portable, they sort of have to be the same. Do you agree with this? This is where more integration would be needed... but weirdly enough, that's exactly what the UK is afraid of!

German degrees were completely different from those here in the UK just 15 years ago. A first degree from Germany took longer than a first degree in the UK (average completion time was about 5 years). When I left for university in the UK, a Bachelors degree wasn't worth much in Germany. I knew I had to get at least a Masters degree to even get a job, if I wanted to go back to Germany. It was mainly the depth of the subject matter that was different. A law degree in Germany, for example, required Latin qualifications, certificates that you have witnessed autopsies a few times (funny stories from friends there - apparently, people lived up to stereotype and puked), etc. ...things you just don't do AT ALL for a British law degree.

I am quoting a British teacher who posted the following on an expat forum:

German teachers are trained in a different way to teachers in England and that is usually where the problem lies in terms of the Staatsexamen and Referendariat (two years' prep service) that gives them "Beamte" status. In most cases, English training just does not equate and therefore anyone coming from England has to jump through additional hoops in order to teach here as well as becoming adept at the German language. It is not impossible but it is very difficult and very rare for a teacher from England to get a job in the German system apart from in state Europaschulen, where they get paid less than the German qualified teachers anyway because of this Beamte versus Angestellte thing.

Giving someone trained as a teacher in the UK 'Beamte' status in Germany is like allowing someone with a simple driving license to drive a huge lorry. I'm pretty sure you'd want immigrants coming to the UK to be adequately qualified, too? Or should we accept someone who did a 1-year course from (insert country) do a job for which a British person would need to complete a 3-year degree?

A few months ago, there was a programme on TV about British nurseries and how they are the most expensive ones in Europe. Now, you'd think that British nurseries would thus have an edge compared to European ones. Maybe better qualified nursery teachers? But when they compared this to France, where childcare is dead cheap, the result was astonishing. The French nursery teachers were far better qualified than the ones here in the UK. So basically, we are paying much more and getting much less.

Is the UK really that much better than the EU??

But you see, in the last decade or so, German universities have actually been introducing an anglicised system (BA, MA, etc.) with fixed time periods for study. This raised the eyebrows of many, many conservative Germans (who will always think their education system is better, no matter what), but had it happened the other way around - here in the UK - there would have been a proper outcry, with people shouting, "We won't let the EU tell us what to do."

This was done to reinvigorate the German higher education system which underwent a bleak period in the 90s. But honestly - I think they just wanted to shorten the time students actually spent at university. People remaining students until their late 20s / early 30s were not unheard of and very much the norm at the time! This anglicised model has also been popular with the students as their degrees became more globally recognised ("MA in Law" is a lot easier to understand than "Diplom-Jurist")... and it just sounds cooler, full stop.

This change has mainly happened with the more commercial degrees, after which people would get private sector jobs. The public sector (like with anything public sector anywhere) sort of moves like a tortoise though. But things are changing, albeit as with everything that requires the change in the psyche of an entire population... very slowly.

I hope you found this useful.

Surely when it comes to looking at population levels and the subsequent demand for jobs, housing, schools, doctors and any other services, the net figure is the only useful one? Hardly meaningless then

Hardly meaningless then

I think it might be meaningless if one's major concern is "argh, foreign people!".

I suppose the nurseries are more expensive here as the cost of living is higher and wages. Ooh I thought nursery staff were not that well paid. A lot of 16 year olds do L2,L3 qualifications in childcare. It seems a thorough course. Degree level would be unnecessary?

The reason that you want to use the gross migration figure is that it suits our agenda, however net migration is the way to assess the immigration figures.

You only want to use the gross immigration figure because its larger and you think it has more of an effect. Net migration is the academically agreed way to measure immigration.

Tell you what, if you want a really big figure why don't you go and find the short term immigration figures, and add them to the 600,000, you know that only counts for those who are staying more than a year right?

Net migration is the standard and is correct. It certainly isn't used by the government to dupe people, is your tin foil hat firmly adjusted?

You really aren't much of an intellectual challenge are you? But your rabid xenophobia forces me to keep going.

It appears that a high proportion of immigration is low skilled people and a high proportion of emigration is that of highly skilled people?

I think some remainers were worried that the Calais situation would get worse if we brexited so voted remain.