Should we guarantee the rights of eu citzens to remain unilaterally

[ReallyTired]

I think we should. They came here with the belief that they could live here.

I suppose the argument is that Spain and France may not show compassion to British citizens who have emigrated. Certainly Spain may well be tempted to use it as leverage to gain sovernity of Gibraltar. I think the chances of the French being vindictive is less.

If Scotland leaves the uk and joins the EU could there be an arrangement where ex pats become Scottish citizens? (Even if they are 100% English or Welsh) in the event of British citizens being sent back?

I am a UK citizen, though.

Aerfen

If my father's paternal grandfather was English
And my father's paternal grandmother was English
And my father's maternal grandmother was italian
And my father's maternal grandfather was English
And my mother's paternal grandfather was Irish
And my mother's paternal grandmother was Irish
And my mothers maternal grandfather was from Morocco
And my mothers maternal grandmother was from Ireland

would that make me indigenous Irish, AND indigenous English, AND indigenous Moroccan, AND indigenous Italian?

Or would you consider me indigenous English because I was born here and appear English… and have some English decent

Which is it?

Because you said here: "The Irish equivalent of any other indigenous persons anywhere in the world, a person of Irish descent."

• so in an effort to understand your understanding of indigenous, it appears you just mean decent?

Lurking - good point. Though as my ancestors appear to have been very unadventurous types, not straying too far from the villages that they were born in (hence being able to create a family tree going back so far - maternal and paternal lines in pretty much every case) I don't think any cuckolding would have diluted the bloodline to any great extent

"I don't think any cuckolding would have diluted the bloodline to any great extent"
LOL, fair point!

I guess you can stay, the rest of us are fucked though when Aerfen takes over! (probably including Aerfen!)

Aerfen
I do not know of any Irish person that would describe themselves as 'indigenous Irish' in the same terms and context that you have referred to indigenous Britons.

Being Irish is many things that certainly cannot be defined by DNA or being pure. The Irish will always welcome with open arms the Mexican American who claims his Irishness through a great great grandfather who immigrated to the US. We are not threatened by those who are only a teeny tiny bit Irish and we do not feel a superior Irishness to those who claim Irishness through their ancestors.

Irish people understand that we are all connected in some way or other and we are comforted by being able to find common ground with our fellow man wherever we go in the world.

Adulting - ironically, I've already left (I live in the US right now)... Maybe I'll have to come back to the UK when all foreigners have to fuck off back home

In terms of DNA you'd actually have a tough time telling apart (some of) the Irish, French, Dutch, German and shock horror British.
I am Dutch but DNA wise i am actually classified as 25% British so perhaps that makes me "indigenous enough" to be allowed in the club

Adulting - I like your definition of "Indigenous European". I can identify with that In fact, that pretty much ties in with how I define myself ethnically when asked (eg in census, ethnic/disability monitoring forms for HR etc): White - European (rather than "White -British").

Yet if you count where my ancestors were born I'm probably majority African but I'd have to do complicated calculations to work it out:

Me: born in SA
Dad: born in SA,
His Dad: born in SA, his Dad many generations SA (arrived18th century from Sweden, having left Germany in the 16th century) but also with some Irish/French Hugeuonot
His mum: born in England but half German, half English (so brought up and stated in in Denmark because of WW1)
My Mum: born in Scotland () but only by pure chance because her dad was working here during WW2
Her Mum and Dad: Australian going back a number of generations but originally English with a hint of royalty

So I can't claim to be indigenous anything Does that mean I should be stateless by Aerfen's definition?

Fortunately the law is more sensible. And I am still proudly Scottish (and European ) Unfortunately I can't claim either Danish or Irish passports (I've checked ) so I've got to pin my hopes on Scotland maintaining EU membership ** - whether by a special deal or via Independence

Aerfen
"Indigenous people do not 'own' land in the the modern sense of holding a freehold. But yes, the native British people have collectively owned our island since time immemorial, every bit as much as have Tibetans, Inuit, Icelanders, Syrians, indeed all ethnic groups in the 'Old world'.
We own a small enough share of the world, and we have a right to control who is allowed to join us and gain a share in it."

Anyone with a British Passport currently living in the UK (or those abroad for less that 15 years) could vote in the EU referendum. The government didn't ask for a Family Tree going back 10 generations where 100 per cent of your family members were born in the British Islands fom British descents. In fact Irish living in the UK and Common Wealth could also vote . But anyway Aerfen are you proposing that only a minority of British has the right to decide on British matters because the rest of British passports holders are not British enough? You don't speak for the majority of British people . Pure blood, and all how great . You think You are better that the rest of us . Go and do one with your grandiosity.

FarAwayHills

That's what a friend of mine said. Nice outlook on life.

Can't believe we're discussing our 'race' post-Brexit now.

Also: I'm a mixture of countries and continents.

And proud of it. It took so much more to create me than random village people fornicating after meeting up casually at the local tree/pub/whatever existed hundreds of years ago.

My ancestors had to move back and forth, thousands of miles over several centuries to create ME... and that makes me feel special.

Ditto Snowbells

Friends have called me a "pedigree mongrel" because I'm so mixed up but also have the family tree.

Even in my own life time, I've emigrated 3 times (twice to the UK, once to NZ). And my ancestors have proven to be just as widely travelled.

I think the esteemed poster in question has run away, because lets be honest, they have been roundly defeated yet again by the MN collective.

Well done folks.

Come back again Aerfen?

Adulting
The individual of the unlikely ethnic mix you decribe would obviiouly be ethnically mixed thus indigenous to nowhere.
FAH
While I am interested in your view of Irishness, kindly do not presume to speak for all Irish by the use of the 'Royal we'. Irish people vary greatly in their views, however suchh an approach has enabled you to wriggle out of answering!

I dont know why you perversely wish to deny Irish people the right to be considered 'indigenous' however! Perhaps youre not ethnically Irish yourself, despite migrating here from there.

Professor Brendan Loftus, head of the UCD research team which has mapped the complete genetic code of an Irish person says:

Major genetic surveys of Ireland and Britain have established that the gene pool of both islands is amongst the least diluted in Europe. The genetic evidence shows that three quarters of the ancestors of the Irish and British people were the pioneering settlers who arrived at the end of the last ice age between 17,000 and 8,000 years ago

smallfox2002
'Run away'? Simply because I dont 'live' on MNet! Get a life!

The one with the vulgar username
I dont need the idiots guide to who is entitled to vote thanks, and no we are not discussing 'voting rights' we are discussing the meaning of the word 'indigenous'.

Those Brit disparagers (and Irish disparagers ) who are unwilling to grant this status to any of the ethnies of Europe have so far shown themselves quite unable to provide a reasonable and just explanation of such a stance other than dark suggestions that we are too impure!

BengalCatMum
We will probably get bilateral right to remain, i.e for both parties (I think you meant to say) which is the best option, as Mrs May, as you rightly point out, hasnt been stupid enough to promise this to EU citizens here without safeguarding Brits in the EU.

I dont think either group needs to be anxious but I gues sthere is bound to be some anxiety, less I think about the right to remain as the terms under which they will be allowed to remain, benefits (in work benefits claimed by huge numbers of EUers here, but few Brits in Euroland), free use of the NHS etc.

Aerfen:

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/datablog/2016/feb/05/eu-migrant-couples-receiving-tax-credits-uk-government-figures

Now this article is based on a FOI request and using the HMRC own data
"Of the 167,800 EU couples claiming tax credits in 2014, 19,600 were couples where one of the partners was a UK national"

167,800 couples in not "massive numbers".

I don't live on MN either btw

Oh and on your "indigenous" arguments:

wellcome.ac.uk/press-release/who-do-you-think-you-really-are-first-fine-scale-genetic-map-british-isles

Anglo Saxons make up 10-40% of DNA in nearly half of all modern Brits

But basically the findings suggest that the most "indigenous" people in the UK are not the English, but the Welsh

.

The only thing I'm wriggling out of Aerfen is engaging with your bizarre obsession with the notion of indigenous peope. I've no intention of tracing my family tree back to the ice age to prove my Irishness.