The Westministenders Hunger Games continues. Boris still trying not to be outmanoevered.

[RedToothBrush]

Clearly Boris didn't get the memo, on when to quit the power games, even after Gove schooled him in the dark arts of the Tory Leadership....

So the Tory Smackdown rolls on whilst Corbyn STILL clings on. UKIP has now entered the race to make a challenge for who can make the biggest leadership contest shambles.

In The Blue Corner
May strikes fear into the hearts of EU citizens as she counts her bargaining chips.
Gove strikes fear into the hearts of humans, with his Martian twitch.
Loathsom strikes fear in the hearts of Britains by talking about babies brains.
Crabb strikes fear into the hearts of Torys by suggesting a plan that Corbyn might like. (and that beard doesn't help).
And Fox.
Well he just turned up.

Johnson is still waiting in the wings to stab Gove. He'd quite fancy a seat at the cabinet table too.
Osborne has gone quite again and we wait with baited breathe to see if he is the 'Charlie off Casualty' of the Tory Party (y'know whatever happens he somehow survives like a cockroach).

In The Red Corner
Corbyn apologies. So we know he's getting a bit desperate.
Will the Unions figure out something else to do other than sit with their head in hands.
Angela Eagle is still doing jellyfish impressions and hasn't found that backbone.
We STILL don't know who the fuck Owen Smith is?
Will Bliar's chicken's finally come home to roost?
The Cult of Momentum, rumbles on. We aren't quite sure who they actually vote for, but they seem to like their Dear Leader.
When will this country next have an opposition party?

Its kinda getting boring guys, we need some action now. End the Chicken Coup! The Tories are definitely out doing in the high drama stakes.

In the Purple Corner
Farage has gone! Hurrah. We hope only that he stays under that rock.
(Don't count on it. They'll wheel him out when they need publicity)
Will Leadsom be elected leader? Oh sorry, wrong party. I was getting confused for a second there.
Will they throw the cuckoo Carswell out? [:)]
Will they be able to find a less offensive leader than Farage who can unite them in their common goal of errrr..... yeah. That.
How long before one of their candidates has to apologise for something?

And I suppose I should ask, when will a50 be triggered....? And by whom?

All these questions and more.
Sense of humour compulsory. No experience necessary though

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2670552-Has-Boris-been-outmanoeuvred?pg=1 Previous thread 1

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2672388-Has-Boris-been-outmanoevered-Will-someone-please-tell-me-who-is-in-charge Previous thread 2

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/a2673982-Have-Boris-and-Jeremy-been-stabbed-in-the-back-Please-can-we-have-some-leaders Previous thread 3

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2675432-Boris-outmaneovered-Et-tu-Gove-Corbyn-The-Westministenders-Hunger-Games-Continues? Previous thread 4

We need someone experienced in government as PM, who would work competently and pragmatically to get a good deal.
The Brexit option with the least pain is EEA, but AL belongs to the ideologically pure rightwing who mainly wanted Brexit so they could make loot the country, a bonfire of the Welfare state and workers' rights.
The far right are ALWAYS the enemy of the poor and the vulnerable. Unfortunately they often have a great PR machine, like Goebbels / Murdoch

I think EEA is a shit deal.

I'm notbthat interested in a steady pair of hand if thise hands are committed to dismantling human rights legislation and continuing with ruinous austerity.

So much of our recent pain has been been inflicted on the country by the government of which Gove and May have been senior members.

It's almost hilarious that we are cheering them on.

Fuck them both.

Neither gives any more ofva shit about the working poor in Britain than Leadsom.

Or the European Commission, for that matter.

I see the Adam Smith Institute are yet another group who see EEA as the only feasible Brexit option
http://www.wired-gov.net/wg/news.nsf/articles/Adam+Smith+Inst+Why+the+only+way+is+EEA+for+a+post+Brexit+Britain+05052016093500?open
EEA seems to have wide support across the political spectrum from those who actually research facts and analyse, as distinct from merely emoting.

They point out a major advantage: it's the only viable option to negotiate within 2 years.
It also is the nearest we can get to cherrypicking the bits we like and leaving those we don't - except Free EU Immigration, which is the obvious sticking point for a vocal group of Leavers.

They are hardly my favourite think tank politically, but they have created an excellent summary of EEA pros & cons, highlighting more differences EU / EEA than some may realise:

The Adam Smith Institute are a bunch of right wing charlatans.

Even a cursory reading of Adam Smith's writing makesbit clear nations shoukd never trust groups like that to serve any interestsvother than narrow sectional ones.

As they do.

EEA is great for everyone who thinks the UK was doing marvellously after 6 years of austerity and 30 years of declining wages.

It is - give the plebs what they technically voted for, but make it as easy as pissible to keep fucking them over and undercutting their wages.

I'm not going through all the shit Brexit is going to visit on my country for that.

Also noting the neoliberal "inevitability" of their argument.

Doinitfine There is no Brexit or Remain option that can compensate for having a heartless government and a hopeless opposition. The UK government has the overwhelming power over our lives, not the EU.

The EU may over several more decades develop into this Unites States of Europe - and that is terrifying to Mumsnetters on another thread ! - which does look vaguely liberal centrist / Social Democrat / Christian Democrat
However, currently it is a free trade area with lots of trading standards rules, plus some social & environmental bits bolted on. The EEA is even more free-flowing.

The WTO allows slave labour, so that's no salvation either.

Those are the options: EEA or WTO
There is no USSR left

I'll take WTO, thanks all the same.

Being told that after all this we get zero change except reduced influence over the laws we are bound by, gives me the rage.

The EEA is a shit deal.

And we might not even get it. It requires 33 countries/institutions notbto veto us.

Within 2 years.

So there HAS to ve another plan.

Anyone telling you it is the only option is a liar with an agenda.

WTO still leaves bilateral (and potential future multilateral) deals open to us.

We will negotiate best if we don't go in with only one option on the table.

We've already blown everything up.

This is not the time for conservatism.

Wait 6 months and the Tory Leavers with their houses worth 10-20 % less will be screaming for EEA, as will all those areas that have lost thousands of jobs and EU funding.
EEA will probably have 60% approval. I just want to cut the period of pain waiting for it.
There was never any revolutionary option.

In or Out of the EU, it is the national government that controls our lives - Italy has had communist governments; E European countries have had far-right. All that was within the EU, which is just a very loose confederation.
Your problem is; so far the UK has never voted further than left of centre. Blame the voters.

Would you take trading under WTO rules if it meant the end of UK financial institutions being able to export financial services to the EU?

The WTO will take about 10 years. There are no workers' rights inbuilt; it is just raw capitalism, everything left to member governments, good or bad.
Slave labour & atrocities like Union Carbide in India are WTO rules.

You are looking for social justice, but that is completely separate to EU or WTO. Just that EU / EEA have some restrictions on what can be done to workers. WTO don't.

Actually, Brexit was the revolutionary option.

That's what leople voted for - a leap off the cliff edge into the abyss.

I was, and still am, opposed to it.

But landing on a tiny ledge just inside the abyss whilst being still pretty much on the same cliff as before isn't going to cut it.

If Tory leavers wantbto change their minds in 6 months, then we need never invoke Article 50.

But going into negotiations begging the EU to please please let us keep all the immigrants and spending is going to create ripe conditions for an increae in populism and racism, quite apart from being a ridiculously weak position.

We need a leader who can recognise and aspire to the other options open to us. Not a desperate supplicant looking to maintain the privilege of the UK's wealthiest.

The sensible ship has sailed. The EC will eat any delegation coming in more afraid than hopeful alive.

If you want a revolution, losing 10% of our GDP (City of London financial services centre) is a good start.
Then all the business lost suring 10 years of negotiations with WTO members.
We's have to agree immediately to TTIP (which the EU is rejecting) , so at least USA / Canada would trade with us
I suppose the proletariat will rebel if they get hungry enough - wasn't that the Lexit / SWP theory ?

Would you take trading under WTO rules if it meant the end of UK financial institutions being able to export financial services to the EU?

Meh

I have to put up with checkpoints between me and my family and have a return to car bombings to look forward to.

If that's a risk worth taking, so is financial services taking a hit.

The economy coukd do with some rebalancing away from financial services anyway.

It wasn't happening while we were in the EU and all the politicians were being paid for by city money.

Now it will happen the hard way.

I'll take WTO, thanks all the same.

Being told that after all this we get zero change except reduced influence over the laws we are bound by, gives me the rage.

The EEA is a shit deal.

Doin You and I have been on opposite sides of the fence on a few things, but in this I fully agree.

After the leap, you can pull youself up because there is a handy climbing rope. Rather than dying to keep your pride. Laughter won't kill us.

Are you in NI ? The neglect by English Brexiters of NI was disgusting; even the bloody NI Secretary of State didn't give a shiny shit about the consequences. She should be sacked for dereliction of duty. She's been disastrously incompetent in every office she's held.

There would be no customs borders within EEA, i.e. none between NI and RoI.
Wouldn't the peace process remain as it is, provided everyone knows after a few months that we are aiming for EEA ?

The EEA is very doable - the US, Germany, France and the other big guys will all pressure the couple of reluctant countries, because they want stability and they are desperate we don't disengage from Europe. All the EU want a prosperous, friendly neighbour, not one sinking into chaos.
Within about 2 years, we'd regain what we have lost in this muddle.

There is no solution that will satisfy 90% of the population, so let's go for what a majority would tolerate.

Another implosion imminent then thanks to Jeremy Hunt. Thank God he is not negotiating with the EU for us!!

New junior doctors' contracts in England 'to be phased in from October'

Hugh Pym
BBC News Health Editor
Posted at
15:50
Stepping away from Tony Blair's press conference for a moment, Jeremy Hunt has told MPs new junior doctors contracts in England are to be phased in from October - after taking advice from the Academy of Medical Royal Colleges.

The contract to be introduced will be what was agreed with BMA in May. Yesterday it was announced that junior doctors had voted against the contract.

The EEA is not a real change. It's "EU light" with the same responsibilities and expense, without a voice.

If we're going to step out into a Brave New World, then by God, let's make some changes. Otherwise what's the point of this whole thing?? Invest in areas other than London so we're not a one-trick-pony.

We've been conned. Let's just admit it, make the best deal.
And let's smash Murdoch, Dacre, Arron Banks and the other scheming bastards who conned the electorate.
Strip Murdoch of all his media interests in the UK, on the grounds of gross subversion in this and many General elections, Hillsborough, decades of hate against immigrants and those on benefits.
I wish we could jail that evil bastard

There was no point, except to con us into being looted. Let's just step back. We haven't lost.

I think WTO is what Banks and Murdoch are after.

I think we could say goodbye to the NHS with WTO. I'm not sure that the majority of UK citizens are insulated against that.

I honestly don't think we're in a position to kiss goodbye to the support the financial sector gives the economy. I think that the dependency on the financial sector is a Bad Thing but, realistically, we just don't have time (or the attractiveness to investors) to rectify that between now and Brexit.

I'd go for EEA, not least because it always leaves the door open to WTO. Of course, there is a whole question there about EEA and EEA-. And, of course, much depends on the EU.

I do wish there would be an upsurge of rage against Dacre, Murdoch and Banks.

This idea that since we've told the EU to fuck off we might as well say the same to the financial services sector is so nihilistic I'm not sure how to respond.

The fall-out would be a loss of tens of billions of revenue each year and a message to many companies that would think of investing in the UK that we don't really welcome that kind of thing.

However, it would give huge power to local demagogues and people who come here to meddle who are backed with resources located outside the UK.

I do wish there would be an upsurge of rage against Dacre, Murdoch and Banks.

Why do you think they have vilified liberalism?

In my less extreme moments, I'm closer to this position, by Patrick Honohan:

Slow negotiation might help achieve better Brexit solution

He recommends EEA as an interim measure.

But stresses thatvwe need to deal with the things that made people vote for this leap into the abyss.

Absolutely no way should we support any Tory racing to conclude negotiations ASAP.

That will be all about continuing with theit attempt to use austerity to dismatle our welfare state.

We are not safe in their hands in the EU, as the past 6 years have shown.

Anythjng that gives them thecstatus quo but with less oversight is a disaster.

At least some of them are starting to make anti-austerity noises already.

Let's keep that pressure up.