"Nobody necessarily stays anywhere forever"

[DorothyL]

Says Teresa May

Words cannot describe the RAGE I feel at this fucking government. My children would really quite like me to stay!!!!!!!!!!

I think we would need to change the immigration rules, Just5, though as you say that can be simple enough

There is also the fact that the High Court has repeatedly made governments (of various persuasions) abide by principles of fairness in not introducing immigration rules that would have a retrospective impact. So I would be pretty bullish about the ability of the vast majority of EU citizens to remain in the UK (though accept that's easier to say when it's not directly impacting me)

I do get annoyed at pp throwing around terms like fascism and making out that the UK treats immigrants worse than anywhere else in the world.

Firstly, every country has the right to decide who lives within its borders - in and of itself, it is not fascist to determine this. (It might be racist or objectionable in other ways, of course.)

Secondly, we are so much more welcoming, tolerant and accommodating than so many other countries: we don't limit property ownership to British Citizens; by and large we don't exclude non-Brit Cits from working in certain jobs or professions; we allow dual citizenship; we are generous in the amount of time you can be outside the country but still clock up time towards permanent status; we allow access to education, public services, healthcare etc etc etc.

personally I'm proud of all this, despite the continuous rhetoric about being tough on immigration, and the constant tightening of the immigration rules and policies. But please don't make out that the UK is the worst place in the world to be a foreigner - it really isn't

May is not telling the truth. She could guarantee the rights of EU citizens in the UK. Thereby making it very clear that people are not political bargaining chips. Instead she is choosing to set a different tone, sending out the message to EU member states that their citizens are not respected in the UK. I hope the other EU leaders have better morals and don't let it harden their hearts towards the Brits in their countries.

I broadly agree with you wimple.

We have such a long history of being inclusive. Longer than our EU membership. We won't go rogue as a nation now.

Who would want a British passport now? It's going to be worth fuck all. My daughters boyfriend is Polish and she says Polish passports were always considered pretty worthless, but with the leave vote his passport will be better than hers as he gets to be an EU citizen & she doesn't.

My daughters were born EU citizens and I am beyond angry the Tory party stirred up the thick racist element to rob them of their birthright. Scum, the lot of them.

She's behaving most bizarrely for someone running for leadership. Not unifying, but almost applying hostage negotiation principles.

I suppose she's another one who is buffered from modern UK life in her bucolic Bucks village and the rarified atmosphere of the Home Office.

It's an intellectual exercise to her, not people.

"She's behaving most bizarrely for someone running for leadership. Not unifying, but almost applying hostage negotiation principles."

I don't know she may be appealing to the UKIP and or right leaning Dail mail reading fraction of the Brexit vote. Her tone is despicable.

I suspect TM has learnt from her tenure as Home Sec that until the lawyers have had a chance to comb over a proposed policy for unintended consequences and obstacles, she would be foolish to get into details. Anyone would; no politician wants to miss the opportunity to deport foreign criminals, for example, because of the way that they have constructed the policy to allow EU citizens to remain in the UK

She could still say that "the vast majority have nothing to fear" or "we'll do everything we can to protect non-citizen residents", even if she didn't want to trip up on the fine print. It's not the right mood music.

I also don't like the tone in regards to an individuals worth. There's lots of talk about protecting the rights drs and nurses and the implication that they are intrinsically more valuable than someone who washes car or picks cabbages. It's horrible.

yes, i am not feeling the love here.

That's not just the politicians TBF boots.

Migrants keep making distinctions between themselves and other migrants. A friend of mine was doing it (focusing on tax she'd paid). Someone on this board started a thread the other day and I think the OP mentioned the fact that she paid 'a LOT of tax' about 8 times.

It's been a societal shift n the past decade to calculate a person's worth by earnings or tax contribution and far too many people have bought into in across the board.

It's a horrible climate which sees immigrants as economic units rather than people, who now feel they have to keep justifying their existence. Just look at all the posters on MN over the past days who feel they need to preface their posts with explanations of what good things they have done for the country before they can air their legitimate fears.

This is the climate that has resulted from the referendum and the Leave result. Sad sad sad.

Yes, agreed 5Mins

I agree LittleMiss - but that's been prevalent throughout the whole Leave campaign. Brexiteers (on the whole) don't want Lithuanian cabbage pickers and Latvian car washers in the UK - they don't see the value, they don't think they make a net contribution to the economy, and they don't care if they all have to leave. They see that doctors and nurses bring skills to the UK that we need, and will pay taxes and help stimulate the economy through their buying power.

I suspect migrants are doing it because they're picking up loud and clear the message that they're only value is in what we can get out of them.

No doubt.

My daughters were born EU citizens and I am beyond angry the Tory party stirred up the thick racist element to rob them of their birthright

I'm interested in this as a legsl point.

Can it be legal for people's citizenship rights to be reduced, even by a majority vote?

Why should anyone get to vote away someone else's rights to citizenship they have had by birth?

It seems an extraordinarily perversion of democracy.

But it is not appropriate to compare EU citizens living in the UK paying taxes and NI for decades

Our politicians love copying the Australians on immigration issues. Just look at what they have. Not only do they deport foreign nationals who's lived their entire life in Australia, including those who pay taxes. They also can remove your Australian nationality if you have another nationality, and therefore deport you.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-34980945

I'm just providing some thoughts on where the wind is going.

BTW, I'm from NZ so very aware of what Australia is like with their treatment of kiwis (who have free movement to Oz), long term residents and the point based immigration system.

It's all about control in their words.

Also wondering what with happen to Northern Ireland as so many there require the freedom to live, work and do business on both sides of the border. People there have the right to dual citizenship but some will obviously feel very strongly about being a citizen and holding a passport of one side or the other and inflammatory comments from politicians are not helpful. If someone doesn't start giving assurances and solutions pretty soon things could get pretty tricky again.

I'm not a lawyer, but as EU citizenship is on top of national citizenship, I think the normal protections (eg against being made stateless) don't apply

I also don't like the tone in regards to an individuals worth. There's lots of talk about protecting the rights drs and nurses and the implication that they are intrinsically more valuable than someone who washes car or picks cabbages. It's horrible

I was reading the NHS EU migrant figures today, I don't remember the exact %s BUT…
There is a higher % of EU workers working in support roles in hospital, than the % of EU migrant nurses and doctors.

How well will all those "valuable" nurses and doctors be able to do their jobs without all those "less valuable" cleaners, cooks, porters etc?

Can it be legal for people's citizenship rights to be reduced, even by a majority vote?

I've been wondering that since the vote, Doin. Really upset that we will have our rights as EU citizens to travel, study and work throughout the EU stripped away. Does anybody know?

Of course you can reduce someone's citizenship's right. It happens all the time isn't it? Like rights to benefits? If I recall correctly, didn't May propose to strip someone of their British citizenship even? Did she get it through the Lords?

some will obviously feel very strongly about being a citizen and holding a passport of one side or the other

It's amazing what can happen to "strong feelings" when they conflict with financial wellbeing.

Post offices in unionist areas across NI were running out of Irish passport forms last Friday and Saturday.

The Irish passport office has been inundated by applications for first time adult passports for NI residents since before the referendum.

(Hint: that means people who have held British passports until now. So mostly Protestants.)

I know statelessness is not an issue.

I mean at a more fundamental level, for people to be able to remove people's birthrights just by having a popoular vote on the matter.

It's a bit of a scary precedent.

Yes exactly Doin I wasn't thinking of being rendered stateless, which obviously isn't happening.

"May can strip a person of citizenship without prior approval from a judge or parliament, and the individual’s only recourse is to quickly launch a long and costly appeal in the Special Immigration Appeals Commission, a specialist court in London which deals with evidence deemed so sensitive to national security that it is heard in secret."

www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2016/06/21/citizenship-stripping-new-figures-reveal-theresa-may-deprived-33-individuals-british-citizenship/