March? What march?

[Thefuturecouldbebright]

Can anyone else find much news coverage of this 'democratic march against democracy'? Twitter is full of info, but tune into the news channels and you would be forgiven for thinking it wasnt happening. Kind of has the ring of 'nobody cares' really doesnt it?

A number of marchers posting on twitter seem to think they are geographically being removed from Europe, although I guess you could forgive them given the odd name given to the march itself 'March for europe'

Why is it not 'March for E.U'? Isnt that what they are really there for? Anyone else as confused as I am?

I don't think they all are ignorant Soren, not at all - but I do think that the politicians have been wilful in their ignorance

This is what I blame Cameron for. I watched him at PMQs last week and he had no idea why people voted Leave.

Jeremy Corbyn

Government figures released yesterday show that the number of children in this country who are living in poverty has jumped by 200,000 in a year to a disgraceful total of 3.9 million.

Should the Prime Minister at the very least apologise to them and to parents who have been failed by his Government, and do something about it so that we reduce child poverty in this country?

The Prime Minister

If the right hon. Gentleman wants to deal with the figures, let me give them to him. Income and inequality have gone down. Average incomes have grown at their fastest rate since 2001. He asks about poverty. There are 300,000 fewer people in relative poverty since 2010 and half a million fewer people in absolute poverty since 2010.

If he is looking for excuses about the referendum and the side that he and I were on, frankly he should look somewhere else. I have to say to him—he talks about job insecurity and my two months to go—it might be in my party’s interests for him to sit there; it is not in the national interest. I would say: for heaven’s sake man, go

I honestly do not think Cameron understands his country.

I think we are all on the same side (I think!) but all I keep hearing is that the EU is the lesser of two evils. The idea that leaving the EU will only make things worse just seems a bit short sighted.

What's not acceptable is MPs not knowing, or ignoring, or not acting on, these issues.

Definitely. And I agree about willful ignorance. It's truly great that Corbyn is there fighting but sadly his own party have made it even easier for the likes of Cameron to continue in their ignorance.

Um, How so?

The bonfire of the regulations that is to come will make things worse for the ordinary worker.

If we don't get full access to the EU market then much of our export trade will be damaged.

If you thought Cameron and Ossy were bad, then see what is coming, the even more neo liberal Tories.

Bye bye NHS, private companies running schools for profit etc.

cait even I'm not sure it's the lesser of two evils. Not permanently. Right now I feel it is. It's a feeling I have based purely on the economics and what assumptions are put into models. But that's because there was never an exit plan. Had this been about if we were to leave the eu and look to seek a particular option referendum my opinion may have been different. It's generally where I come to when voting in general elections too. Do they have the economic grasp to deliver what they're promising? Because rhetoric is only good when there's solid ground beneath it which very sadly I think this entire mess has proved.

I agree Caitlin - I've said it on quite a few threads:
Ultimately we seem to share the same ideological goal, but we differ in our preferred routes to getting there.

For me, leaving the EU is better than staying in.
For me, one size never ever fits all, especially when there is such disparity between the involved nations.
For me, we were EU lite anyway and needed to fully embrace or bugger off.
For me, the amount of money that is poured into our being within the EU machine is far too much (not the figures bandied around about how much we 'pay in', but all of it - travel costs, wages, expenses etc).
For me, ever closer political union is never a good idea - the idea of one big bloc seems sinister for some reason.
For me, national identity is important for all countries - diversity is just as (if not more) important than equality.

To say that 'it might be a bit shit in some respects, but sticking with the status quo might be^^ the lesser of 2 evils' isn't a solution, it's a sticking plaster.

I went on a march on Saturday. It was fantastically cathartic and reassuring that so many good, sensible, kind, people feel as we do. Obviously there were the skinhead idiots you'd expect, shouting 'traitor' and 'sell-out' (which doesn't even make any sense, as far as I can work out?), and thinking they'd scored a massively clever point by shouting 'democracy!' (in a democracy, you have the right to protest, duh).

What came across the most strongly is how heinously the Leave voters were manipulated and lied to by a bunch of people who don't even give a rat's arse about the EU one way or another.

Cameron called this to soothe his own party; Johnson never wanted to win, Gove saw a chance to increase his power and be making Big Important Speeches; Farage, fuck knows, but he's lost interest now alright, hasn't he? None of them even wanted this: none of them has had a good word to say about any of it since it happened.

Face it, Leavers: you were played, you were pawns, you were lied to and manipulated. Referenda are an atrocious idea anyway - we elect on a mandate and that's what happens - the government shouldn't be asking everyone what they think every two minutes, and if what they think is bollocks, the government shouldn't follow up on an advisory referendum!

Peace seems to have broken out on the thread!

Ultimately we seem to share the same ideological goal, but we differ in our preferred routes to getting there

YY Mango, I think (hope) this is the case for most people.

seek I came across a group of skinheads whilst I was in parliament square. They were joining in, banners about lies and quite angry about it all. It was nice to see the diversity tbh.

I didn't see the skinheads, but I was fairly near the front. Maybe they hadn't got out of bed by the time I reached Parliament Square.

Good link from another thread; well worth a read:

medium.com/@oliverhumpage/i-want-to-stop-something-exploitative-divisive-and-dishonest-conversation-with-a-leaver-af77afb1773f#.4x9jklaid

The EU doesn't push for privatization of the NHS ffs, oh and btw the Tories opened the door even further with the Health and Social care act.

Again the point that the "low wages" have been screwed isn't true either, if so why did wages (including those of the lowest paid) rise between 2004 and 2008 when immigration rose?

The points about Newcastle being artificially funded? Shows a basic ignorance of the N.E economy.

The post about people in Boston sleeping in sheds might be true for a small minority but not for the vast majority.

It makes it out to be middle classes Vs the working classes, its certainly not.

In fact Mango I stopped reading at the point, because basically its the same old shit rehashed, steroe typical "no one listens to us" whine. It isn't enlightening to read the same old bile that is utterly incorrect.

It was an interesting article and a good read, although TBH I think some MNetters on here have expressed some of his points better .

Although... what did he mean by "The principal Remain area was London and the banker-belt through the Cotswolds, plus a few pockets " and "The rest of the country north of the Thames (plus Cornwall) has been closed down"? If he's suggesting that cities apart from London that voted Remain are pockets, that's also kind of offensively London-centric.

The EU doesn't push for privatization of the NHS ffs
or maybe it does...
www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/what-is-ttip-and-six-reasons-why-the-answer-should-scare-you-9779688.html

'Public services, especially the NHS, are in the firing line. One of the main aims of TTIP is to open up Europe’s public health, education and water services to US companies. This could essentially mean the privatisation of the NHS.

The European Commission has claimed that public services will be kept out of TTIP. However, according to the Huffington Post, the UK Trade Minister Lord Livingston has admitted that talks about the NHS were still on the table'

The EU commision has said that public services would be kept out of TTIP, the ones that were requested by the individual nations. The UK government didn't put the NHS on the table until very recently. There are clear caveats in TTIP that allow for state owned monopolies and public services, the nation states have to make sure the ones they want to protect are identified.

Although now we are out of the EU, expect a far less beneficial TTIP deal to be signed as soon as the US can be bothered to get around to us.

The EU commision has said that public services would be kept out of TTIP, the ones that were requested by the individual nations

Again this shows the disingenuous Tories who will cry "EU made me do it", it was the same with them voting against state-aid last year and then saying they cant help British EU because of that pesky EU.

I think UKIP and Tories will get in next election and there will be some crap about 'tough choices and needing to be fiscally responsible' while they put trusts out to tender.

"The EU commision has said that public services would be kept out of TTIP, the ones that were requested by the individual nations. The UK government didn't put the NHS on the table until very recently. There are clear caveats in TTIP that allow for state owned monopolies and public services, the nation states have to make sure the ones they want to protect are identified.

Although now we are out of the EU, expect a far less beneficial TTIP deal to be signed as soon as the US can be bothered to get around to us."

I agree with all this, especially the last bit, sadly.

Nobody talked properly during the campaign about the carve out of public services from TTIP. Instead it was allowed to grow into a bogeyman acronym, that was just bandied about and then thrown down on the table like a trump card, with very few people being clear what exactly they were talking about.

TTIP being the bogeyman certainly is right. Used very well by people who are ardent Atlanic Bridge types to "scare" people all the while shouting "project fear" at any points made by independent economic agencies.

It makes it out to be middle classes Vs the working classes, its certainly not.

Does it?

I happen to think he made the point pretty well about how the working classes were ripped in two by Tony Blairs 'stewardship'.

The more articulate, aspirational working class people were caught up in the 'everyone's a manager' dogma and the less articulate & able were reduced to an underclass by the benefits trap.

Thus, making it easier to run 'intellectual' rings round the newly formed underclass.

In fact Mango I stopped reading at the point, because basically its the same old shit rehashed,

Perhaps if you carried on reading you may have been enlightened a wee bit, and could have been more rounded in your discussions?
Or do you think you have nothing left to learn? You already know all there is to know? Different opinions from different individual viewpoints cannot possibly compete with DATA & FACTS?

steroe typical "no one listens to us" whine. It isn't enlightening to read the same old bile that is utterly incorrect.

And there lies the crux of your inward-looking, tub-thumping.
Already the noise has turned into a 'whine' for you - after just one week.
The voice that has been ignored for decades is now nothing more than 'bile'.

Your posts are a very clear indicator of why the Leave vote won.
Because the people in charge think exactly like you.
Working class whiners spouting bile.

How utterly charming!

The voice that has been ignored for decades in Tony Blairs fault? In the north decimated by thatcher? That wages and conditions are low, mostrich areas of the North have low.immigration but still.blame it for their woes.

It talks about the London bubble like everyone here is well paid, there are.more people with high living costs and low wages than anywhere else in the country yet it makes out like we are all living in Notting Hill.

So yeah, same old bile, blame immigration not globalisation, blame London that is a net tax contributor, blame the EU which funds work, funds infrastructure, funds projects. Don't blame Cameron just direct your bile at the easy target.

Boston is one example of one area with a relatively higher than average amount of immigration that voted out, on the whole these areas have low.immigration. yet this is what is blamed for the situation.

Oh and I didn't make it about class. Never have, the piece you linked to did. There were plenty of working class people who voted in.

"And there lies the crux of your inward-looking, tub-thumping.
Already the noise has turned into a 'whine' for you - after just one week.
The voice that has been ignored for decades is now nothing more than 'bile'.

Your posts are a very clear indicator of why the Leave vote won.
Because the people in charge think exactly like you.
Working class whiners spouting bile"

well said Mango!

There were plenty of working class people who voted in

as *Mango pointed out, that'll be the 'aspirational working class people, caught up in the 'everyone's a manager' dogma'

The voice that has been ignored for decades in Tony Blairs fault?

Didn't say that

What I said was that he made damn sure that the working class was torn in two.

Thatcher started it, he did a sterling job of finishing it; Cameron made sure to keep it going.

Oh and I didn't make it about class. Never have, the piece you linked to did. There were plenty of working class people who voted in.

Again,
At no point did I say that you made it about class.

I posted a link, you responded to & referred directly to the link, which was about the class divide as well as other stuff.

I quoted your words:
basically its the same old shit rehashed, steroe typical "no one listens to us" whine. It isn't enlightening to read the same old bile that is utterly incorrect.
and responded directly to them.

Fantastic. We had some peace and then in comes the name calling and othering again.