March? What march?

[Thefuturecouldbebright]

Can anyone else find much news coverage of this 'democratic march against democracy'? Twitter is full of info, but tune into the news channels and you would be forgiven for thinking it wasnt happening. Kind of has the ring of 'nobody cares' really doesnt it?

A number of marchers posting on twitter seem to think they are geographically being removed from Europe, although I guess you could forgive them given the odd name given to the march itself 'March for europe'

Why is it not 'March for E.U'? Isnt that what they are really there for? Anyone else as confused as I am?

Go and live in Boston for a while and get a taste of what 15% feels like when you are socio-economically deprived. You are typically clueless.

That is the lazy lament of lazy people

So - what would you say to someone who says they can't get a job? Would you tell them to 'get on their bike' because there are plenty of immigrants who seem to find work.

I don't believe immigrants 'nick our jobs

Go and live in Boston for a while and get a taste of what 15% feels like when you are socio-economically deprived

Aren't those 2 statements contradictory?

Or are you talking about the impact of a lot of people from a different country on a community?

Queen = totally UKIP. It's just undisguised xenophobia.

You know nothing about me queen, yet more ad homs because you can't argue against the data.

Boston has more than your average leave vote town, but Sunderland certainly doesn't. In fact the North East has a very low level of EU immigrants, but still voted out mainly because of immigration.

Ever get the feeling you've been cheated?

It's just undisguised xenophobia

I don't think that's helpful. I think the best way to understand people is to listen to their concerns rather than dismiss them with a label. That should be one lesson from the referendum.

queen

What impact do you think a large change in a population has had on a place like Boston? What worries you? Is it down to the fact that a place people have known has changed rapidly and people think there's no control over it?

Let me clarify: the 'immigrants nicking jobs' argument when it emanates from those who don't want to work is risible. In places like Boston they have legitimate concerns, don't you think? And Boston is not the only community suffering because of uncontrolled immigration.

You're probably right, soren, but I do find comments along the lines of this:

Go and live in Boston for a while and get a taste of what 15% feels like when you are socio-economically deprived. You are typically clueless.

quite hard to bear. "you try living with 'em" type rhetoric is immensely damaging and insulting. I've lived all over - in places with high immigration and low,, and there are a lot of immigrants at my dc's current schools - it's horrible language to use.

n places like Boston they have legitimate concerns, don't you think

What concerns do you think they have? Not enough housing, too many unemployed people, infrastructure unable to cope with the increased influx of people? Not enough jobs?

it's horrible language to use

I know. There are other subjects on here where similar language is used. The counter argument is to here what people are saying. It may well be tough, it can lead to othering but it can be countered. (depending on the platform people have).

We have a LOT of issues in the UK and in the world that need confronting. People will still discuss them off line and 'silencing people' by labelling them leads to issues like the Leave vote. It leads to Trump and his politics.

Listening to people who you may strongly disagree with is really hard. I know. I have to do it on MN a lot and it really hurts and I wish they'd just shut up. Engaging is even harder.

It is the enforced transformation of lives; too many babies; not enough school places or doctors surgeries or housing. There is real suffering.

Yes, I vote UKIP. The alternative is lying millionaire neoliberals who threw the working class under the bus years ago.

not enough school places or doctors surgeries or housing

Austerity is to blame for that as well. It did not help that Cameron turned a blind eye to that.

not enough school places or doctors surgeries or housing

Corby has been going on about that for ages.Watch PMQs. He goes on about poverty, school places, lack of housing and GP places constantly. And Cameron laughed in his face and dismissed him.

Is Corbyn wrong?

Queen, I live in Enfield, just to give you a bit of info 2% of our populations first language is Polish that means that 6,240 people in our borough are Polish. Our demographic is that 63 % of people here were born in England, that means 37% of our population are immigrants.

Don't give me the "go and live among them" claptrap, I do and at a far larger level than anywhere you have mentioned so far.

too many babies; not enough school places or doctors surgeries or housing. There is real suffering

This exists where I grew up, a place hardly hit by immigration at all. This exists in other places where friends live hardly hit by immigration.

This exists where I live, where there's a lot of immigration. This exists where friends live where there's lots of immigration.

In some of those areas (both with and without large immigration levels) though there's been a rise in homes building but no increase in provision of schools/drs/hospitals/transport/road infrastructure projects/etc. In some there's a large aging population but drs provision has dropped not even stayed at previous levels. Recent baby booms have not been confined solely to immigrants.

Here's a link that perfectly explains the Boston feeling:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36258541

Notably:

"...The average hourly wagege*^ nationally is £13.33. Across the East Midlands, it is £12.26. In Boston, it is £9.13. On a weekly basis, full-time earnings are more than £100 a week less than the national average.^
^
...There is also a problem with local housing. Because some workers come temporarily, they do not mind housing themselves poorly for a spell.

^So 10 single workers may each pay £60 a week to share what was a three-bedroom house, netting the landlords £600 a week. That means a gross rental income from the house of perhaps £30,000 a year.
That is much more than local families can afford for those houses - and the housing supply has simply not kept up with demand.^

Local rents in Boston are actually much higher than in Nottingham despite wages being lower. This is a major problem within the town and has become a major cause of frustration. People living next door to these multiple-occupied homes are also not happy..."

So - rents have risen higher than other areas, average wages have fallen significantly; the dynamic of the small town has changed immeasurably in a very short space of time.

Overall: immigration at this level in a short space of time has had a net positive effect.

Individually & on a more personal level: immigration at this level in a short space of time has disadvantaged severely families.

Thank you, Mango. I couldn't find a link that wouldn't have been savaged by some on here. The Peter Hitchens report is particularly stark.

Those of you in denial about the effects of mass immigration: What are your feelings when you read the stats and predictions? Do you cling to them as determinedly as the economic predictions, and if not, why not? It is not, after all, only UKIPers and racists who have concerns..

So 10 single workers may each pay £60 a week to share what was a three-bedroom house, netting the landlords £600 a week. That means a gross rental income from the house of perhaps £30,000 a year.That is much more than local families can afford for those houses - and the housing supply has simply not kept up with demand

No denying that there a lot of issues there. Those are the kind of issues that should have been addressed before we got to this stage. But the Conservatives did have their ears in their fingers and were ignoring it.

Not just the Conservatives with their fingers in their ears Soren:

hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2016/06/boston-lincolngrad-i-saw-the-seething-resentment-now-it-is-time-to-finish-the-revolution.html

I'm not in denial about immigration, as pointed out I live in an area with far higher immigration.

Mostly you still select the bits of information you want to, unemployment in Boston is below the national average.

The comments about the town booming are not mentioned.

You see your issue with housing? National government policy, not EU.

The Lower wage thing? Would suggest less people working in higher paid professions, as is confirmed by the statement that Boston has always been a low income town.

BTW, love the fact that you slipped in a neo liberal point, I doubt you understand what that means, or what the impact of brexit will be on the implementation of neo liberal economic policy.

You'd be right - I don't know what neo-liberal is, but I haven't pretended to.

Any views I express are entirely a representation of how I, personally, understand things.

I am not signed up to any tribe or political party - I am one of the annoying floating voters who have voted Tory, Lib Dem & Labour over the years, I also agree with different politicians from all sides depending on the issue being discussed at the time.

I also didn't ignore the fact that immigration had been successful on the whole for Boston - I mentioned it clearly in my penultimate paragraph on that post.

Not just the Conservatives with their fingers in their ears

When I voted Remain, I was more than aware of the issues facing people as you've described.

I took the decision that the economic effects were more important. That does not mean that I was blind to or ignorant of the effects that immigration was having.

I also voted Labour. Because I believe they are the only party that gives a shit about the lives of people affected by austerity, housing crisis, school places, the NHS etc.

I am sure many Remainers are not ignorant about the issues facing people. But many of them don't think leaving the EU is the answer and will probably just make things a hell of a lot worse.

My view is similar to smalls. I completely appreciate immigration is not in a perfect state in this country. But there's give and take on both sides of that argument, but largely government policy was ineffective before 2004.

There's a very good reason I don't take unsourced stats on migrants without a hefty pinch of salt - In a few on the newspaper published ones when the sources have been revealed I've found I'm in them, and my children have been in them. We're all UK born. My father's family and my DH's family trace back to the 1600s at least in Britain. But my DM is Irish.

I don't think they all are ignorant Soren, not at all - but I do think that the politicians have been wilful in their ignorance.

Why would someone from London know what things were like in (for eg) Boston, unless they deliberately went looking for it?
That is not the problem - many are in their own bubble most of the time (me included), and that's perfectly normal.

What's not acceptable is MPs not knowing, or ignoring, or not acting on, these issues.