March? What march?

[Thefuturecouldbebright]

Can anyone else find much news coverage of this 'democratic march against democracy'? Twitter is full of info, but tune into the news channels and you would be forgiven for thinking it wasnt happening. Kind of has the ring of 'nobody cares' really doesnt it?

A number of marchers posting on twitter seem to think they are geographically being removed from Europe, although I guess you could forgive them given the odd name given to the march itself 'March for europe'

Why is it not 'March for E.U'? Isnt that what they are really there for? Anyone else as confused as I am?

Tiggytape. Great post.

This is all getting ridiculous. It's like watching my dc arguing. It's all you can't say side a are all blue eyed but side b are definitely all brown eyed and that generalisation is completely fair. It's not fair on either side.

Fwiw I've had to majorly lock down my social media because I've had someone start bullying me relentlessly over being a remainer. I've been told to suck up racism, deserve it myself, put awful things on anything I've posted (even a thank you to another mum who helped my dc out), been told it's my kind who have ruined this country. It's not nice. But do I think all leavers are like that? No, twats are like that. One of my bfs is a leaver and she's one of the nicest people I know. She's also suffered abuse at the hands of twats.

The great thing about these events is that you can more easily weed a twat out. Well, except the ones in power, they're a little harder to weed out whichever way you vote.

As I'm perfectly sure you do know, Mango, my point was that that article illustrates one of the concerns of people on the march: that the deprived areas that have benefited from EU funding have a massive amount to lose, and it is difficult to understand the motivation of leave voters in those areas - especially when their main concern seems to be immigration despite the fact that immigration has nothing to do with the causes of deprivation in their area. And that it is a serious concern that the Remain message didn't get home in areas like Ebbw Vale, for which the Remain campaign has to take some responsibility. However, the Leave campaign has to take more responsibility, because it was their blatant lies that spark some of the views espoused by the interviewees quoted.

I don't think people are necessarily reading that PERC article correctly. The point being made is essentially that people living in areas in receipt of EU subsidies don't feel grateful for that, and that they voted for autonomy and control. I don't think anyone has ever said they should have voted Remain out of gratitude. As for the wish for autonomy and control, that would be fie if voting Leave offered that opportunity; but I have yet to see anything that suggests that they will get it. They will still be subject to the control of the government, and a very right-wing one at that, so can they really have believed they would have one iota of autonomy and control either now or in the foreseeable future? It's not good enough to say they can vote the right wing government out, given that almost universally they didn't vote for this government in the first place.

People are also missing the following wording in the conclusion to the article, which is pretty significant:

"in contrast to southern European members of the EU, Britain is scarcely constrained at all. Instead, it has benefited from economic stability, a clear international regulatory framework and a sense of cultural fraternity with other member states. One could even argue that, being in the EU but outside of the Eurozone, Britain has had the best deal of any member state during the 21st century."

that the deprived areas that have benefited from EU funding have a massive amount to lose, and it is difficult to understand the motivation of leave voters in those areas

It really isn't & wasn't though.

These people have been shouting for years, but were ignored, minimised & dismissed consistently.

It's really very obvious.

The point being made is essentially that people living in areas in receipt of EU subsidies don't feel grateful for that, and that they voted for autonomy and control.

This is explained in the Sociology of Brexit article.
These people are fed up of being forced into a situation where they are obliged to 'feel grateful' to their benefactors.

I agree absolutely that Britain had the best deal of all member countries, but there is a lot more to the Leave vote than that.

whenever I vote, I'm trying to improve the life of strangers - I vote for a better society every time.

Virtue-signalling at its most (yes, I'm going to say it) blatant cringeworthiest.

Did you ever consider that the poor, ill-educated plebs who voted Leave also considered their vote was for the benefit of British society as a whole? Or do you believe middle class Remainers have the monopoly on altruism? On discernment. On political understanding.

Too many 'economists' on here and not enough sociologists.

And all these bloody students bemoaning their 'robbed' futures. The real reason that simpering generation are apoplectic with rage that Britain voted Brexit is because the helicoptered, no-platforming, safe-space-demanding showers of shite have never been denied anything in their lives. Until now.

The point being made is essentially that people living in areas in receipt of EU subsidies don't feel grateful for that, and that they voted for autonomy and control.

Or, maybe because Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and a load of other Leave campaigners wrote a letter promising that they would match EU funding in their area?

A promise that they have since gone back on.

Judy this is what drives me mad - the idea that the state of the steel industry in Ebbw Vale, Port Talbot and other places is nothing to do with EU rules and regulations! Absolutely the Tories' fault for privatising it in the first place. But madness to suggest that the EU, who prevent state aid to help save the steel industry but allowed us to bail out the banks, is somehow morally superior because they funded some leisure facilities.

Queen will you just give it a rest going on about 'plebs'. You want to frame this as nothing more than class war, no other issues or complexities. I didn't say that Leavers didn't vote for a better society, I was disagreeing with the person who said most people vote selfishly. Saying that I consider more than just the effect on me when I vote is not the same as saying I think poor people don't! You are absolutely fixated by this idea that all middle class people voted Remain and all working class people voted Leave - I imagine their were people in both groups voting either way. Just like this 'elderly Brexiter' stuff is not overwhelmingly the case - my parents, all of their friends, my in laws and my sister's in laws are all 60+ and all voted Remain. My 63yo mum said she does not know a single person who voted to Leave. So whilst I appreciate the polls have given us general trends of the way people voted, it wasn't 100% Leave or Remain for any demographic and it's so tiresome having you pop up and respond to every single comment with your 'you can't handle the plebs having a day' because whilst I'm sure some social snobbery had been expressed by some people, it is by no means the case that all Remainers are expressing bafflement over champagne on their lawns at all those frightful poor folk being allowed to vote any more than it is true that all Leavers are racist hooligans chasing immigrants out of the country with pitchforks.

Sorry for the errors, hope my meaning is clear despite the typos!

Just catching up with this one - and yes to exactly what tiggy said up thread earlier.

These people have been shouting for years, but were ignored, minimised & dismissed consistently.

These people are fed up of being forced into a situation where they are obliged to 'feel grateful' to their benefactors.

Sure. How does voting Leave improve any of that?

caitlinohara, yes, EU rules prevent governments from using state aid to bail out failing industries. But no-one seriously thinks that a state bail-out would have saved the Welsh steel industry. Self-evidently EU funding is not restricted to leisure facilities. Since when did stations, roads and educational facilities come within that category?

Sorry mango but I'm going to repeat something I've said before.

As it has become apparent that many people have voted in and in out vote on the EU on national government decisions. That they really don't get it.

Also voting out has just stopped the rescue of the steel industry.

Re leisure facilities, yes I admit, I was being flippant.

I feel like I am repeating myself here, but I will say it again - I did not vote out because I am in any way deluded about our government. But I don't understand why people are so insistent that everything that goes wrong is down to our government, but thank goodness, the EU will come to our rescue? Why cannot people understand that it is the same ideology that is behind the Tory government and Brussels, the ideology that promotes privatisation and globalisation? They are two legs of the same beast (if that's the metaphor - it should be!). To say that voting out has just stopped the rescue of the steel industry is a circular argument.

What you seem to be advocating is that yes, we know Brussels are shit, but we might as well live with it because we're in too deep to get out. I say that's defeatist.

People don't like change or uncertainty, Caitlin, especially the middle classes, who put their faith in the City (despite bankers being unscrupulous thieves) and monolithic 'safe' institutions like the EU. They love the idea of being European and not merely British ('So inward-looking!') and harbour grandiose notions of Sophia and Oliver studying 'abroad'. They despise Britain, really, as they have to rub alongside thick bigots (now proved to be more than half of Britain!) when really they feel far more at home waving sticks of French bread like lacrosse sticks at demonstrations

the EU will come to our rescue?

I'm not sure anyone has said that - people are pointing out that a lot of the problems people are blaming on the EU are actually largely down to Tory austerity, and many other things that have been controlled by our government - dating right back to Thatcher.

I don't know anyone who thinks the EU is perfect - however, I know a lot of people who think 'better in than out' and that we are stronger in the political and trade union with our nearest neighbours. There is a hell of a lot of misinformation about the EU - mainly fed by the right-wing, anti-EU press (largely led by Murdoch, who hates the EU because they don't do what he tells them), it is not perfect, but it is also not the shadowy, unelected bureaucracy that people make out either.

Many many people and institutions, with a lot better knowledge than I, predicted we would have a hard time and be worse off outside. I don't want a recession - it will harm people, harm people worse off than me. I don't want more welfare cuts, or higher taxes, or less govt spending - all of which is on the cards. I don't want Cornwall, Wales, universities and everywhere else to lose it's EU funding because I'm damn sure this govt is not going to match it.

Wow queen you really have some issues don't you?

I've had a few insults on here this week but suggesting that I read Murdoch's press has to be the worst!

No one wants a recession. We've got to get rid of this government if we care at all about public spending. This is a long game, and you're right, it will almost certainly get worse before it gets better with this lot in charge, but in the long run I really believe we will be better off.

Who said you read Murdoch's press? I said Murdoch's press propagated anti-EU feeling, because Murdoch hates the EU.

A long game? There is no game, no plan, no one in charge.

Tissues, you say?

OP, is that you? The gloating seems familiar.

Is it not obvious that people create funny signs in order to capture attention and encourage people to share on social media much like you are doing OP?!

Ah, hypocrisy strikes again. You're all x y and z nasty people thinking we're x y and z. Not that I know who or what you are. I'll just assert it anyway.