March? What march?

[Thefuturecouldbebright]

Can anyone else find much news coverage of this 'democratic march against democracy'? Twitter is full of info, but tune into the news channels and you would be forgiven for thinking it wasnt happening. Kind of has the ring of 'nobody cares' really doesnt it?

A number of marchers posting on twitter seem to think they are geographically being removed from Europe, although I guess you could forgive them given the odd name given to the march itself 'March for europe'

Why is it not 'March for E.U'? Isnt that what they are really there for? Anyone else as confused as I am?

Greenish

Me too

Me and my family will probably be just fine

Well, presumably UKIP would continue to campaign and if there was enough democratic support then they would have a chance of gaining enough power to push it through. I would think that if we stay, angry Leavers will turn in significant numbers to UKIP - a prospect I find unsettling for sure.

I would think that if we stay, angry Leavers will turn in significant numbers to UKIP - a prospect I find unsettling for sure.

Me too Captain.

Sorry Yoda, not sure what your point is?

OP, you have a very weird perception of the baguette/signs thing. Is it only a valid march in your eyes if people hold up deadly serious signs? If you really think people who went on that march weren't 100% serious about their very valid concerns, you are deluding yourself.

The simple fact is, if you voted in the Referendum, you then agreed to the whole process. You can't complain now if it didn't go your way.

That's a Catch 22 argument if ever I heard one. If we hadn't voted, you would be saying "You didn't vote when you had the chance. You can't complain now if it didn't go your way". There simply is no logic in saying that voting somehow disqualified people from the right to protest and campaign.

Some people who voted leave would have wanted to stay if reforms had been likely but they gambled that it didn't seem to be heading that way so voted out on the basis that they wouldn't get a chance again when/if the EU started to move even further away from what they were happy with.

Exactly this

Slight derailing here - I wonder whether, say, the Scottish Affairs Select Committee might task themselves with investigating the representations made in the leave campaign - based eg on Michael Duggan's report and other similar allegations of misleading behaviour and lack of concern for the truth. It would be confined to the impact on Scotland - obviously - but they would get to interview all the main participants.

They did a terrific job uncloaking blacklisting over 2015.

Obviously if Scotland votes to leave the UK then this sort of Westminster avenue will not be available, but in the meantime, I don't see why it shouldn't be used, to shine a bit of high level light on what exactly has happened.

Just a thought.

My point is that the referendum, rightly or wrongly, offered hope to people who are desperate for something to change and they were willing to take a risk. Why would you begrudge someone hope?

The question is what was the basis for that hope. Regrettably, for many, it was lies, and criminally irresponsible lies at that: the lie that £350m was going to the NHS, the lie that immigration is harmful to the country, the lie that anything was going to change in terms of EU immigration, the lie that trade and industry wouldn't suffer, the lie that the pound would be unaffected, and the lie that taxes wouldn't have to go up. I don't begrudge anyone hope, but I think it's actively wicked to offer people hope based on outright falsehoods. That is one of the things that makes me really sick about this - that people who really need help have been deceived into supporting something that will actively harm them.

I believe it's insincere to pretend that Remain voters - who are now slating Leave voters in the most offensive terms and have been doing so since the referendum - care a jot about the effect it's going to have on the lives of the people who voted differently to them.

Firstly, it's obviously nonsense to say that all Remain voters are now slating Leave voters in offensive terms.

Secondly, is your belief based on any evidence, Greenish? Speaking personally, the Leave vote won't make that much difference to me - my job isn't dependent on being in the EU, and whilst taxes and prices will go up I guess I can such that up. But I care a great deal that other people are losing their jobs, that innocent people are the subject of racist attacks, that the NHS will be harmed, that we may lose the Union, and that people who can't afford those tax and price rises will suffer. I particularly care that people in the most deprived areas have been suckered into voting Leave in the belief that EU subsidies will be replaced by alternative funding when it clearly won't. And it's very clear from talking to hundreds of Remain voters, including people on yesterday's march, that their position is very similar.

What does bother me is that people like you are so insistent that the vote was purely a selfish one. It feels very much as if you're desperately seizing at straws like that to try to justify yourself. If not, your assumption that everyone votes selfishly says more about you than anyone else.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/01/europhile-crybabies-want-to-kill-off-british-democracy-so-we-mus/

What bothers me is that people seem to.be making this a middle class vs the poor argument.

If it was made like this it has been spun that way by the media, and by the media that has reported all of the untruths and half truths spouted by the leave campaign. Oh and Queen I can't believe you accuse the remain campaign of lies, utterly hypocritical.

Mango Re the Guardian quote - I am appalled at some of the writing in the Guardian this week, my natural newspaper of choice. Most especially the implication that "we" must have all voted the same way. It has made me realise how much things have changed - that the liberal elite are running the show and dominating the narrative, and I didn't see it before because economically and academically I am part of that elite. Before I would have had to read the Sun or the DM to find views that I found repellent, now I see them in the fucking Guardian. It's a real wake up call.

Those in the middle finally decided it and they knew there was no middle ground to be had so they had to vote one way or the other. For those worried by the EU's refusal to reform, the belief that this was their only chance to pull the plug on it, made them act as they did. A negative vote if you like rather than a positive vote for something else. Spot on.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/jun/25/view-wales-town-showered-eu-cash-votes-leave-ebbw-vale

It's awful, isn't it!
Thankfully there seems to be an awful lot of people who can see past it but there are a hardcore that won't.

I've seen a couple of posters saying that extremist left are just as abhorrent as extremist right & they're absolutely correct.

Also agree 100% with tiggytape's post.

Your point Judy?

It's pretty obvious, isn't it?

Err... no it isn't, and the writer of that piece doesn't make much of an attempt to understand it either. Maybe they should have read this : www.perc.org.uk/project_posts/thoughts-on-the-sociology-of-brexit/

No it's not.
Not at all.
Hence my asking what it was.

OK, Mango, tell us the point you were making by your post at 13.15.16.

My point was directly related to the thrust of this thread: people marching to say 'don't listen to the majority - they're just not enlightened enough to really get it.'

The article gave many examples of people who are tying themselves in knots to say 'but of course we represent 'the people', but only if they're the 'right sort' of people - that is, the people who agree with us.

And your point, Judy, was?