Remain voters who have changed their minds

[Thefuturecouldbebright]

Ok, I expect to get pulled apart like brisket here, but... I havent seen anyone raise this question yet.

Is there anyone here, who voted remain, who has now changed their stance in the other direction? Especially now given the petulant tit for tat behaviour of the EU dictator otherwise known as Juncker? (Among others)

I am not asking to go round in circles talking about the falling pound/markets etc, as that has been done to death, I am just generally interested to see if anyone has swung the other way.

wicked ok I see what you mean. So, in brief, Greece was allowed to join because it (again, in a nutshell) cooked the books, with the help of Goldman Sachs and basically faked their economic situation.

On the other hand, if you take a longer, historical view of the EU, it has fixed a huge number of broader problems, like the small matter of preventing war amongst European nations. which were basically in a permanent state of war for centuries and up until WWII. The European economic project was meant to prevent another conflict, through deepening integration. And it did. But now we've made a dog's breakfast out of it.

The thing is that Brexit has exposed a severe lack of political education in this country.

In general, I mean.

Wesailtonight I think Wicked is just saying she wanted out of the EU so that the Calais Jungle and the refugees at the door of Europe are no longer the UK's problem (since the camps won't technically be anywhere the UK has an obligation to do anything about it once it has left the EU).
I don't think helping the refugees is on Wicked's mind, unless I got that wrong? I fail to see how the UK getting out of the EU can possibly help refugees?

looby

I mean, leave voters are telling us that based on research, they were confident to vote us out.

My research said the opposite. So I'm genuinely wondering what everyone was reading to reach the conclusions they did (media? Economic forecasts? Academic research on the eu?etc)

Had I read this article before the referendum I may have voted Leave instead: www.opendemocracy.net/uk/paul-emery/why-on-earth-would-socialists-support-neoliberal-undemocratic-eu (sorry if no clicky link, I'm on my phone and don't know how!).

Leave (esp Farage) did their bit to ensure all Leave voters would essentially be labelled racist or inward-looking for their vote, when I don't believe that's the case at all. If you look at it from an anti-globalisation perspective it kind of makes sense to vote out - but the voters have got to back that up by voting in a party at the next GE which will actually support reinvestment in high streets, communities, public services, British industry and business etc...that could be a bit of a long shot. I wish that on the voting card you could've put why you made your choice... It would give them something more to work with

Voted Remain and after all the events of the last week I'm even more certain of my choice.

Already the lies of the Leave campaign have been revealed but apparently there's no comeback for them

Wowee there's also these guy, just as left-wing but pro-EU as a peace project:

Diem25.org

It's quite new so not sure how it will go, though.

Wowee I know what you mean; the EU is a landmark neoliberal project that the anti-globalisation movement is naturally suspicious of. But if you look at it more broadly, that project has had huge advantages for the libertarians too - huge advances on social justice issues, strengthening of equality and employment laws and rights, billions in funding for a huge range of activists (from environmentalism to human rights) and groups, not to mention mobility that allows free movement for these groups and ideas. It has allowed solidarity amongst volunteers and groups that would otherwise be limited if we still needed a visa to go out of the country for a weekend (I lived in such a regime once upon a time. I do not recommend it). Anti globalisation and similar movements kind of rely on the fruits of neoliberalism

At the moment, lots of community, arts, environmental, etc groups in the UK are heavily reliant on EU funding. I cannot see a tory government replacing their lost EU funds from the central budget.

Nato has kept the peace post ww2.

I voted remain, as did my dh, but both of us might change our minds if there was a second referendum. We both voted remain as we didn't want to leave on the Farage /Johnson et al reasoning. Some differences between us in the I fully support free movement, dh doesn't, however we voted remain last week as we didn't think the timing to leave was right given what we knew, the lack of a plan, and the fact that a right wing brexit would be a disaster socially, for workers rights, to curb the worst of the Tories etc.however we have had some turmoil already, there will be more, and by the time of a second referendum the economic uncertainty will have done at least some of the damage brexit at any time would do.

I also now want contagion accross the EU as I think the euro needs to fail for the European economies to move forwards.

But I would love the city to lose passorting rights on financial services, as that would damage the city which in the long term is a good thing for ordinary people who get swept up in the city culture. I also think the pound was and is overvalued and sterling depreciation is a good thing (half of Europe is crying out for it but the ecb can't allow the euro to fall to kick start Southern European democracies). I also think that the neoliberal elite need to understand that the world should not be run for the benefit if big business if wealth is not spread, and that this appears to have got part of that message home.

So for those social and political reasons I might now vote leave if offered another chance as today they may outweighs the economic arguments to stay which were the main factor for my vote last week.

EU and its blasted euro project is quite possibly driving Europe over a cliff.

WeSailTonightForSingapore

I know you are trying to antagonise. It's obvious. Because as you know the truth is, Leave voters do not know for sure what is going to happen. Some voted with their hearts, some with their head. Some were in jobs, and subsequently made redundant, with their companies being relocated abroad because the EU gave them the grant to set up elsewhere. Some are sick of being governed by an undemocratic system where the UK really have not much of a say in terms of what is imposed. Some have lost their jobs as they simply cannot compete with the cheaper labour on offer.

Others will have read articles, true or false. Articles from the economists for Brexit, or articles in the Wall Street Journal. Articles in the Guardian, articles from Italy, articles from Greece, and so on.

The truth is, Remain or Leave, no one knew for sure exactly what will happen in the future and whether the EU will continue as it is - and to say otherwise is down right lies.

Stop questioning people. I think its unfair

Wowee - if everything in that article is true, then why did all of the left-wing parties vote to remain? Why did the right-wing parties vote to leave? It makes no sense at all.

I voted for peace, remain gives us a greater chance of that, plain and simple.

looby

You see, that's my point. You just said people voted with their heads and hearts - not on the basis of a deep knowledge of the Eu, its treaties, economics and the workings of a single market. Many in the remain camp knew what would happen if we stayed - nothing! Things would largely tick along as before.

What seriously pisses me off is that people voted on a bloody whim based on their interpretation of a few media articles. And now we've been left with a royal mess to clear up.

You just do not make a decision about our economic and political future without a sound knowledge of economics and their relationship to politics. Most of us don't have this knowledge. Hence, this damn referendum should have never been called in the first place.

Bessie NATO is not a guarantor of European security. It symbolically kept the peace but in reality was a static and virtual organisation until the 1990s, after which it largely sidelined European interests in the pursuit of American foreign policy. A deepening EU integration was largely in response to increasing American distancing from Europe (towards the Middle East). Europeans have asked NATO for help repeatedly in the 1990s only to be told to sod off.

I'm out.

I said SOME people. I did not say people. I also told you where articles could and will have been read from. Twist it to suit your narrative though

And no shit sherlock you are out

Voted Remain and of course would again when I see the total devastation the result has caused.

Just the fact the Boris Johnson hasn't stuck around to sort out the mess says it all. The very person who led the campaign has no idea how to implement the decision (or doesn't want to blamed for it). We are so fucked.. and just wait til we give notice of Article 50. This misery could last for years.
But sorry, I forgot, this is all 'short term pain for long term gain'

"the Calais Jungle and the refugees at the door of Europe are no longer the UK's problem (since the camps won't technically be anywhere the UK has an obligation to do anything about it once it has left the EU)."

I actually think the UK should accept refugees. But I do think unsupported children and families with children should have first dibs in the application process. I also think America could take more refugees, but certainly not if Trump gets elected.

looby I just saw that you said that people voted leave because they lost jobs to other countries or cheaper labour. I get that. But much of that is the fault of our own government and the destruction of British manufacturing that started in the 1980s, way before many EU nationals could settle here to work.

The problem is that de industrialisation has left severe problems in this country, compounded by austerity because our government chose to bail out the banks and no one here addressed that, not even labour. Then comes along Farage and suddenly it's all the EU's fault. Yeah, EU has some relevance - it gives grants on a competitive basis.and countries like Romania will compete for business, but that global.capitalism, the reality of which we will see even more off when we leave the EU and have to compete with China and India for jobs. EU didn't swoop in to the UK demanding that companies get out and we apply austerity measures, ffs!

But no, let's forget we voted in rubbish governments that did sod all for the working poor and other disillsionedncitizens

Thanks for the link fawful

wesail That is very true... And those are the very bits that I go back and forth over!

I live in Wales and have a job that covers some of the funded areas so have really been trying to fathom why the majority of Wales voted to leave... Although I understand the many different reasons why people chose Leave, I can't help but feel they've shot themselves in the foot a bit tbh (but happy to be shown otherwise!). The one thing that'll make the difference though is the people. Where funded projects have worked, the community have really embraced it, pitched in, been enterprising and things are thriving, and they're an inspiration... I'm not sure that's the case everywhere and i think those areas will face many more challenges.

WeSailTonightForSingapore

totally OT, but I just had to put Rain Dogs on when I saw your nick.

WeSailTonightForSingapore

I agree that some people may have voted for the wrong reasons but for me, I am sick of people questioning Leave voters when there were great articles from fantastic economists around the world advising on life after Brexit. That is why I had to post. If I had a link to every article, I'd post for you but I'm not sure you're really that interested or even believe me anyway tbh

Namechanger Just my opinion but I think a couple of reasons:

1. It is not the right time. Putin is waiting in the wings and there are serious threats from the Middle East. We are better as a unified front rather than leaving ourselves open
2. They believe it is better to change it from within that from the outside.

Those asking for sources of information. I found this to be good: www.nfuonline.com/news/latest-news/uk-farmings-relationship-with-the-eu-nfu-report/
I am from a farming family and I wanted to understand where their relationship with the EU stood but actually it is a non biased report that just gives lots of facts.

bumble high five!

Namechanger... You are clutching at straws now. Facepalm.

No, there are plenty of racist immigrants - just as there are plenty of racist non-immigrants. Half of my family are Anglo-Indian, they came here as immigrants after India became independent. They are racist. It used to be towards black people and those from the Middle East. Nowadays they bang on about Eastern Europeans. They all voted BREXIT for racist reasons. I find it incredible and have very little to do with any of them.

Anyway, in answer to the question, I voted remain and would do so again in a heartbeat.

I voted to remain and nothing which has happened since the result has done anything to make me think it wasn't the correct vote.

Frankly short of my own unicorn being delivered to my door, I don't think there is anything which will make me think Britain voting to remain wasn't the best option.