Europe's Leading Statesman Gives 'Em Hell

[claig]

Farage addresses the European Parliament after historic Brexit vote.

He says "most of you have never had a real job in your lives" and they all nod in agreement. Farage says "the little people defied the multinationals" and the multinationals sadly agree.

As Farage speaks to the world, puppets panic, stooges are stunned, elitists take a lie down, globalists are gobsmacked and the people party.

At the end of Farage's speech, the Establishment broadcast their pre-recorded booing tape in order to drown out the roar of defiance of the British people.

After Farage, Marine Le Pen speaks and says that the Brexit vote is the biggest event in Europe since the fall of the Berlin Wall.

claig
The "Establishment" again!

Actually, both sides were full of "Establishment" figures. I cannot but laugh at the naivety of someone who thinks Johnson, Gove, Farage etc.etc. are anti-"Establishment". If I were a mad conspiracy theorist I would surmise that this was all a game to hoodwink the public that Johnson etc. were somehow representative of the "common people".

But you're right about the flaws in the Remain campaign. It could, and should, have been done better. But both sides were guilty of dishonest smear and fear tactics - although the fact that the great majority of the "Establishment" Press, in terms of circulation (Sun, Daily Mail, Express etc.) were rabidly pro-Brexit meant that only one side had its misdemeanours exposed. The Sun even tried for a while to deny that the guy who murdered Jo Cox was anything other than a deranged loner.

I included George Osborne in my list of preferred negotiators not because I particularly like him (I don't), but because I think he has actually behaved quite well since the decision - and he has a degree of economic expertise which is higher than most MPs. I agree that a Labour MP should be included.

'And you base that on what knowledge?'

Common sense

It was obvious they would have to provide emergency financial support after all the irresponsible scaremongering their best and brightest could cook up.

Deutsch Bank predicted a lower pound and said that that would mean that the British economy would outperform its European partners

'Yes because all of the independent analysis was Cameron, the overwhelming majority.'

You mean like the ones that get 10% of their funding from the EU and another 40% from the government (i.e. from us). The more they lined up, the more we determined we were to vote Out.

'Laughable really, your theories have more holes than a sieve.'

Maybe so, but fewer holes than Osborne's "Punishment Budget"

Claig, take your tongue out of Farage's arse and read some fucking statistics around the financial markets since the referendum.

Meanwhile that stupid fucker Farage is insulting the very people we will need to make trade deals with.

Not blessed with any common sense is he?

Idiots both you and him.

Don't mean to be rude Claig but you might want to skip your theories on international finance / economics until you have a little more understanding of the topic.

What you suggest repeatedly, conflicts with basic theory, expert opinion and what we see around us in the real world, both historically in general and directly related to Brexit.

I feel a bit mean saying this, because I think you actually believe what you're saying, but it's not true. Sorry.

small

Claig has admitted that they do not have fundamental understanding of political and economic structures and that they choose not to be further educated about the subject that is clearly their passion

It's a shame. But not a surprise. Horse...water...use of distorted facts etc

Damn...still don't know if I'm in or out - I won't sleep tonight!

Globe cross post sorry

Ah Claig, your so not worth arguing with.

Nice products will not make up for the loss of trade.

No one buys management consultancy in on price, anyway what are we going to consult the Chinese on? do you kn ow what we advise lots of non EU business on? How to run business in the EU.

Pharmaceuticals aren't price sensitive really also much of our development and research in pharma relies on pan EU cooperation, which outside the EU won't be going on as we would have to set up our own regulatory system ( this is straight from the horses mouth of a senior researchers). Rolls Royces, or Bentleys, or Aston Martins aren't price sensitive, if you want one and can afford it you buy it , £5 or ten grand either way doesn't make a difference.

BAE and Airbus were desperate to stay in wonder why that was? Could it be that the EU market is worth far more than even the potential markets you suggest?

Come one Claigy, put up a decent argument.

'Actually, both sides were full of "Establishment" figures. I cannot but laugh at the naivety of someone who thinks Johnson, Gove, Farage etc.etc. are anti-"Establishment".'

The Establishment side i.e. Cameron's Team, the whizzkids, the best and the brightest, kept asking poor old Gove (who did a tremendous job for the people) if he could name one established expert who supported his side. Gove looked them staright in the face without blinking and said "Donald J Trump" and the people laughed. Cameron's side were the Establishment side, they had all the money, all the thinktanks, all the experts who receive government and EU funding and the Leave side just had Boris who drops more clangers than the Clangers themselves, and yet the Establishment still lost because the people didn't believe a word they said.

"although the fact that the great majority of the "Establishment" Press, in terms of circulation (Sun, Daily Mail, Express etc.) were rabidly pro-Brexit meant that only one side had its misdemeanours exposed. "

I agree with that, however it is a whole new debate as to whether the Daily Mail and even Murdoch are the Establishment. I read the Daily Mail precisely because it is common sense and by definition therefore opposes the Esatblishment where it gets it wrong. If I wanted to read the Establishment's line, I would read the Guardian, the Times, the Mail on Sunday and the Beano.

'but because I think he has actually behaved quite well since the decision - and he has a degree of economic expertise which is higher than most MPs'

He has had no choice in behaving well after disappearing for several days. It is debateable about the amount of "expertise" he has, but point taken, he must have learnt something in putting out the fires he created with the economy.

'Meanwhile that stupid fucker Farage is insulting the very people we will need to make trade deals with.'

He was on Channel 4 and in answer to that, he said he "teased" them which is fair enough as they probably deserved it.

Yeah whatever Claigy, keep trotting out those lines.

"I read the Daily Mail precisely because it is common sense and by definition therefore opposes the Esatblishment where it gets it wrong."

Ah the Lord Rothemere owned Daily Mail, just not part of the establisment at all.

What a load of rubbish you write.

'No one buys management consultancy in on price, anyway what are we going to consult the Chinese on?'

On how not to run a referendum. I expect the Leave cmpigns phones are ringing off the hook from leaders all aross the world dreading their own imminent populist rebellions and referendums.

Their jaws dropped when they watched Osborne and Cameron and the Team have a go, and they want to learn from their blatant errors.

'this is straight from the horses mouth of a senior researchers'
Were they in receopt of government funding? Were they cited by Team Cameron?

'BAE and Airbus were desperate to stay in wonder why that was?'

Stability and certainty, but they are capable of adapting. All they want is some common sense and now that Cameron is going, the signs look positive

'Ah the Lord Rothemere owned Daily Mail, just not part of the establisment at all.'

I am a bit worried by Rothermere having appointed Geordie Greig to run the Mail on Sunday, but Paul Dacre on the Mail is great. Dacre is with the people against the Establishment nonsense, common sense basically.

FrankH, if I could just chip in here, I am reading this thread with interest as it is intelligent debate (on the most part anyway). But I think you will have just stunned a few people on here with the last line in your post! There are an element of the remain campaign on here over the last few days who have been saying that anyone over 65 should not be entitled to vote and maybe that one sentence has highlighted how judgemental they have been in their views on the older generation and on other things (ie branding the racist card). No one knows anyone on forums like this so need to be careful with their accusations and assumptions.

"were they in receopt of government funding"

ALL pharmaceutical research is in receipt of government funding, in fact this was for sure because the senior researcher I know in charge of several projects is based, and carries out research at an NHS hospital. Its of vital importance to the NHS.

Paltitudes Claig, platitudes, I fear you may be losing this one.

Airbus and BAE know that one of their biggest export markets is the EU, that actually because they work alongside other EU development teams they achieve more.

Your point about management consultancy is ridiculous, utter drivel, you certainly don't know your stuff.

claig
The fact that you think the Daily Mail is anti-Establishment and "common sense".....words fail me.

They do have one fine writer, Martin Samuel, the Sports Editor. Incidentally, reading between the lines, it's clear he didn't support Brexit.

"He was on Channel 4 and in answer to that, he said he "teased" them which is fair enough as they probably deserved it."

As for Farage, whether or not the members of the European Parliament deserved to be insulted by him, it's not a wise thing to do this when this country needs friends.

I have a niece who is at present working for a top Chinese company, and part of her remit is arranging investments in Europe and the USA. She already reports that a projected investment in a British company has been put on hold because of what has happened.

However, as I posted earlier, economics aren't everything. I'm not sure we should have joined the EU in the first place. I am prepared for a lower standard of living in exchange for regaining our sovereignty. Unfortunately I doubt whether everyone else, including Brexiters, will be quite as stoical. Or quite as forgiving.

claig
Paul Dacre! Now, you've lost me completely. To put this guy up as somehow ....sorry I can't go on, I know at least one person whose life has suffered as a result of the poisonous tosh he promulgates in his paper. Anyone who thinks this "newspaper" is anything like an unbiased "common sense" source of news, I haven't got the words to express my feelings.

time4chocolate - interestingly enough an acquaintance of mine, older than me (I think, he looks older) actually a Brexiter, wrote a letter to the Daily Telegraph, which was published, also suggesting that older people shouldn't be allowed to vote on this. His argument was that whatever the result, we older people would not have to live as long with the consequences as younger people. While I don't agree with him, he has a point.

'The fact that you think the Daily Mail is anti-Establishment and "common sense".....words fail me.'

FrankH, I have read the Daily Mail for years. It is anti-establishment, as much as it is allowed to be anyway. It obviously cannot go against certain issues, but on many issues it defies the Establishment and its consensus, which is why Blair'd former Chief of Staff, Jonathan Powell, said it is the paper the politicians all fear, including the Tory ones. It was against the Liverpool Pathway, it questioned the proposed action on Syria, it is against a lot of the government appointed fat cats in teh public service, it attacked UKIP during the election because it had to, but most of its readers back UKIP over Cameron. It is relativelu sceptical on climate change but nowhere near enough, but what can you expect, it is mainstream. But out of the mainstream, it is the paper that most often challenges Estbalishment consensus. That is why readers like it.

'They do have one fine writer, Martin Samuel, the Sports Editor. Incidentally, reading between the lines, it's clear he didn't support Brexit.'

Yes, but have you read Peter Hitchens, He was for Brexit and Littlejohn and Katie Hopkins, she lays into the Establishment a lot. The Mail on Sunday even pulled one of Peter Hitchens's articles at the time of the Rochester by-election, I think it was, because it was anti the Tories.

'As for Farage, whether or not the members of the European Parliament deserved to be insulted by him, it's not a wise thing to do this when this country needs friends.'

They have known Farage for years. That is what he does and that is what Verhofstadt, the Moriarty to Farage's Sherlock Holmes, always gives back in spades. They always have a ding-dong there and Farage said to Verhofstadt it is just because Verhofstadt wants to increase his yutube viewing figures. From what Farage has said, he like Juncker, he thinks he is a normal bloke, but he doesn't like Cameron et al much because he thinks they can't relate to ordinary people.

'She already reports that a projected investment in a British company has been put on hold because of what has happened.'

Yes, lots of stuff is on hold because of the uncertainty. this is why Cameron's extra long resignation and no Article 50 invocation and the whole delay tactic is so irresponsible.

'I'm not sure we should have joined the EU in the first place. I am prepared for a lower standard of living in exchange for regaining our sovereignty. Unfortunately I doubt whether everyone else, including Brexiters, will be quite as stoical. Or quite as forgiving.'

Yes, if we asked to join now, would we want to? Most of us wouldn't. We are locked in and it will be difficult to get out but after that we can get a real democracy where we can sack our useless politicians and elect a better political class so that the country starts to serve its people and starts to boom again.

In the words of the Dad's Army song, you've got another think coming "if you think old England's done".

We gained our freedom and soon we will be trading with the world and running our own affairs.

I think we should have allowed those 16 plus to vote, there are many who are horrified that their future opportunities have been curtailed by the older voters.

Katie Hopkins now?

What about the IFS, Bank of England, CBI, Car industry, Aerospace industry, BCC and Insitute of Directors?

You really aren't an intellectual challenge are you?

'What about the IFS, Bank of England, CBI, Car industry, Aerospace industry, BCC and Insitute of Directors? '

Are there any government grants, pay, contracts or perks involved?

claig
I can take Peter Hitchens - I quite often find myself in agreement with him.

But Katie Hopkins!!!!! Actually I'm not concerned as to whether she is pro- or anti-"Establishment". Anyone should just google to find the sort of nasty poisonous rubbish she has come out with in the last few years. Even if I agreed with her basic viewpoints I would be put off by the nasty insensitive tone of so many of her comments.

claig - some have called you a "troll". I have given you the benefit of the doubt that you're not, and will continue to do so. But to put forward Katie Hopkins in support of any argument!!!...

FrankH At least the 65+ generation could be arsed to show up. What was turnout in 18-24s? About 35%? So don't let's try to pretend that they've somehow been overruled by the older generation. They basically didn't bother getting out of bed to vote.

I don;t think any of those organisations or industries that I've quoted above are corruptable by "government payments or perks"

The Daily Mail however is owned and operated by a hereditary non dom peer, who is extremely neo liberal and doesn't like state provision of services or interference in markets. There is an agenda there.

Same with the Telegraph owners and the Sun.

They are all also united in wanting to pay the least amount of tax possible.

See we can play the vested interest game all day long. But you lack any credibility having quoted the mail and then questioning the IFS and the Bank of England.

cait that point fundamentally ignores the patent issue - or a few of them

1. We do not educate our young people enough about voting and politics -as a nation we should. They are if you pardon the pun the future. That would increase voter turn out
2. If they had been motivated and educated enough the likelihood is it would have been a remain vote
3. The truth is that they will have to live with repercussions of this issue long after the over 65's and myself are dead - that is not attacking any sector of society

But we need to address issue 1) as an imperative.

'I can take Peter Hitchens - I quite often find myself in agreement with him.'

Do you agree that he is one of our bravest anti-establishment journalists, prepared to challenge the consensus over many, many issues. He never follows the crowd. I think he gets some things wrong, but he gets many more right.

'But Katie Hopkins'

I disagree with you. I know she has said stuff that I think goes too far and is distasteful and which I wish she hadn't said, but I have read her for a while and I think she is one of our bravest commentators in challenging the consensus, even if I disagree with her sometimes. I think we need people like her in a vibrant democracy to challenge the status quo and consensus. She gets some things wrong, but she has the courage to say what many people think and gets things right. That is the beauty of our democracy. We have great people like Julie Burchill, like Germaine Greer, like Katie Hopkins, like Julie Bindel, like Claire Fox, like Peter Hitchens, like Corbyn and like Farage who are prepared to challenge the status quo and say things that others won't say but which many people think. It doesn't mean they are always right, but in our great society, they have the freedom of speech to say it, at least for now. That is what ensures us that we still live in a country where diverse opinions are allowed and groupthink hasn't destroyed our democracy.

'But to put forward Katie Hopkins in support of any argument!!!...'

FrankH, I like your posts, you are open-minded, but I am not a troll, I do like Katie Hopkins, I think she serves a very valuable role in our sciety as a caustic critic from the sidelines. Even though I disagree with her on some issues, it is people with courage like her and Julie Burchill etc who keep us free by testing what can be said.