Why I Voted to Leave the EU

[Asprilla11]

So I recently started a thread about the misconceptions many remain voters may have about why people voted leave. I argued that there were many reasons other than immigration and that the majority voted fully understanding what the outcome would mean.

On that thread and many more on MN the remain voters keep asking us WHY we voted and are annoyed when we don't answer in full, they forget that since the result SOME have acted in an aggressive and belittling manner towards us, so why would we feel engaged to reply? Many leave voters have had to spend time defending themselves because we have all been branded thick and racist. We are more than aware some racist people voted to leave in order to pursue their disgusting agenda, most leave voters don't want to be associated with those people and we condemn their stance.

I am willing to say my reasons why I voted leave, even if it means I am attacked for doing so.

EU Commissioners

They are not democratically elected (by EU Citizens) and the President has the final say on any candidate that a member state has put forward. Technically they are accountable to the European Parliament by the fact that the Parliament is able to force the entire Commission to resign through a vote of no confidence. However the Parliament has never done this, but have threatened to do it once. It also needs 2/3 of the Parliament to vote and agree on the reason for the no confidence vote. We can elect MEP's but they have little power over the commissioners.

The commissioners are paid nearly £200,000 per year (some more) and also get generous allowances, benefits and a very good pension. I do not believe the current commission deserve that level of pay, they simply have not earned it, I believe they put their own self interests above EU citizens and I believe they are morally and financially corrupt. If they were worth the salary then the amount would be fine, I just don't think they currently are.

EU Economy

There is very little growth and it is only going to get worse if the Eurozone fully collapses which I feel is a real possibility. Struggling EU nations such as Greece, Spain, Portugal and Italy are in massive debt, suffering with austerity and massive youth unemployment. I don't believe many of the of the other EU nations care about this, as long as the wealth benefits their country then they will pay lip service to those who are less fortunate. I also believe a lot of the benefits of the EU economy and the trade it brings also benefits the wealthier members of society more than the poor, in all of the EU member states.

If the EU had showed they would reform and a new fairer commission was set up which looked at making deals fairer for all EU member states and also looked at immigration in depth (not necessarily changing it) then I would have voted remain without a second thought. However the commission proved what an arrogant bunch they are even before Cameron went to get his 'deal', they won't reform, they don't want to and they don't care who knows it.

UK Economy

The UK will be 6-8 billion pounds better off after no longer paying the EU membership fee, even after the grants we used to receive are taken in to account. However there were several studies that pointed out that the loss in trade will far outweigh the savings from leaving the EU and we will actually be worse off financially. I didn't doubt some of the facts in those studies and I could see how they came to their conclusions, however even those studies have to admit they can't say for certain because nobody knows how quickly we will get new trade agreements with EU member states and how favorably they will be. Additionally although EU membership did not prevent trade deals with the commonwealth and other countries, it did reduce the need and the imagination to. It is only when those deals are in place can you truly say leaving the EU has left us worse or better off. In the short-term we will be worse off, I knew that risk prior to voting.

As a Labour supporter and also someone who is very distrusting of the current Tory Government I can hand on heart easily say that not a single thing Farage, Gove, Johnson and Duncan Smith said I believed at face value. In fact I consider Gove as one of the worst Education ministers ever and IDS I hold responsible for the suicide of some disabled benefit claimants, such an odious man. So believe me the leave MP's definitely didn't impress or influence me!

I did my own research which I always do whenever the Government (any party) state things as 'facts'. I knew the £350 million claim would be wrong (which remain supporters kept shouting was lies) however I also knew the Governments claim that every household in the UK would be £4300 worse off was also wrong, but do you get the leave voters shouting lies? Both sides lied, that is a fact!

Since the crash in 2008 many, many people in the UK (not just the British) have not seen any improvement in their wages or living standards. They have borne the brunt of austerity more than the people who could afford to. The 5th biggest economy in the world and an economy that has recovered and grown still has not brought any benefits to the poor and working class. They didn't consider how leaving the EU would affect their ISA's, Savings, Stocks and Shares because they don't have any! They didn't think about if their child could go to Uni because they would never have been able to afford that anyway. The poor and working class in the UK and the EU don't care if they are a bit worse off for a few more years, they are sick of the wealth that is generated only benefiting the wealthy, this was their chance to be heard.

Immigration

I wasn't going to mention this as it did not play much of a part (if any) in my decision and I also feel like as a leave supporter I have to keep defending myself whenever the word immigration is mentioned, simply because the remain voters keep saying we are all racist.

But here goes.

I worked in the Civil Service from the age of 19 for 15 years. I worked with people of all ages, all religions, all nationalities, LGBT and disabled people too. I matured as an adult in this environment and it undoubtedly made my life richer. I was also a Union Rep and defended colleagues in disciplinary, poor performance/attendance, diversity and disabilities (covered by the Equality Act 2010) meetings and hearings , both british and non-british. Since I left I have kept in touch with former colleagues who are now lifelong friends, some are British, some aren't, it wasn't a factor in whether we became friends or not.

I only mention all of that simply because a lot of remain voters think we have no positive outlook on immigrants and we don't mix in a multi-cultural society. They also think we don't understand the positive impact on the economy migrants (EU and non-EU) have. But actually most leave voters do, immigrants pay far more in to the system than they take out in benefits, that's a long standing, well known fact. There are far more british people who falsely claim benefits compared to immigrants.

Unfortunately I will admit there are parts of society, some of which voted leave who don't understand these truths. Some through lack of education, some through lack of life experience with people of diverse backgrounds and some sadly who are racist. These are the people who already felt poor, cut-off and unheard. UKIP and other politicians preyed on those peoples fears and told them they could help fix their problems.

That is not however the majority of leave supporters, I truly believe that. Most leave supporters have had experiences like mine and we all have experienced nothing but positive things from working and living with immigrants, EU and non-EU.

If the EU could have done one thing with immigration then I wish it gave all EU member states the ability to put a temporary block or cap on EU migration. I say this for the simple fact that the UK and other countries don't have the housing, schools and hospitals to cope with the current UK (not british) population growth, we simply aren't building enough of anything. When you add over 300,000 immigrants to that population growth you start to see the strain it creates.

I think the UK can cope with immigration well above 200,000, when it has the infrastructure in place, until then a temporary reduction or block until the work is done would be a useful tool to have. Alternatively you could look at using builders from the EU countries who could then come and work on those very buildings that are needed.

Finally on immigration, I think Governments in all EU countries need to act more responsibly on where and how immigrants are placed in to communities. Dumping some of the poorest immigrants in the poorest parts of the UK next to communities who are experiencing crime, unemployment and disillusionment with life in general and their prospects, is a disaster waiting to happen, especially when some of those people are known racists.

UK employers, EU employers and landlords in and out of the EU also need to be challenged more on their blatant exploitation of immigrants.

Ok flame away!

small minority So, not representative of the general population (of Leave voters), then? Also, has the veracity of these posts been confirmed in the same way as the second petition? People seem to be able to say and show all sorts of things on social media (I don't use it for this reason) could it possibly be Remainers putting these up? yes, it could

I'm not dismissing racism but it is very clear that the echo chamber created around the myopism of racism and xenophobia stopped the Remain campaign focusing on things that really mattered to people. As a result, the Remain campaign arguments simply weren't persuasive enough to sway the majority to their way of thinking. What the Remain campaign should have done was to hire some really good researchers who were able to see the bigger picture in order to address actual voter concerns. Instead, they congratulated each other on how progressive they were, meantime focusing on aspects of absolutely no concern to an average citizen (who, apart from the small minority mentioned above, are not actually bothered about immigrants and 'brown people' coming in but are, if anything, bothered about being able to determine adequate laws to remove people when necessary).

"I'm not dismissing racism"

You just did, right there, in the paragraph before that sentence.

"could it possibly be Remainers putting these up? yes, it could"

unbelievable.

"I'm not dismissing racism. You just did, right there, in the paragraph before that sentence Where I state that a small minority is never representative of your sample?

could it possibly be Remainers putting these up? yes, it could. unbelievable Shall we just wait until the veracity of these has been confirmed while we await the veracity-checking procedures of the second referendum petition (and then dismiss them because the small minority if not representative of the general population of Leave voters).

Please read this.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2671677-EU-Referendum-Racists-and-Xenophobes?

"Where I state that a small minority is never representative of your sample?"

Yes.

"could it possibly be Remainers putting these up? yes, it could."

And that bit.

Not all leave voters is meaningless precisely because it's dismissive, it's denying that it's an issue.

Job losses and further austerity will fuel racism and violence - people will turn from unracist reasons for wanting to control immigration to anger and hate as they realise they still can't do anything about it. We already have our leaders talking about not wanting to encourage economic migrants by, effectively, making life so horrible for them if they come over here illegally that they regret it - just look at all the migrants we are leaving to fester in camps at Calais. It's not a huge leap from that to concluding that being nasty to legal migrants might stop them coming over.

Aspeilla11 Did you manage to read my comment above? Sorry, wrote it in the middle of the night and some of it isn't as clear as it should be. The numbers I quoted in the debt servicing section is the amount we pay on interest each year. So not the debt... which is significantly more.

Tabula
"Where I state that a small minority is never representative of your sample? Yes".

Are you aware that a small sample is never representative of the general population?

"could it possibly be Remainers putting these up? yes, it could.And that bit"

I thought the fraudulent signatures on the petition were a new low but we may have to stoop even lower, but I'm prepared to wait to have the veracity of these few posts and images confirmed. I wouldn't go so far as to say that this possibility is unbelievable

The mistake that the Remainers made was to see the world as stratified in terms of race/ethnicity only. It isn't. Racism is ever-present and needs to be dealt with, but so too are many other issues. We need to deal with these equally and sensibly. If you apply your preconceptions to the world at large, that's all you'll ever get back. What the Remainers did and are doing is re-confirm to themselves that ethnicity is the most important concern. Some criticality is in order here (aka"open mind").

My reasons for leave was that I think the away is inward looking and has grown all it is going to.

I believe the emerging world markets offer better oportunities and that the EU is standing in our way of maximizing these.

Lastly, I think the EU is on the cusp of failing in its current guise. Look at the nationalism that had built in our own home nations over the past 20 years. The way we had kept together as the UK was devolution. The way the EU has tried together has been the opposite, faster and closer integration. The idea being that nations become so emerged in the EU that that can't leave!

If we didn't leave now it's only get worse and then be worse when it all did finally explode. I'd rather have left now when it was not so enmeshed and to allow us to develop our worldwide links and gain greater stability to ride out that storm when it comes.

Hang on a minute. I'm not denying for one minute that there is a minority of racists in the Leave camp. I think it's highly likely that we would have seen people expressing this sentiment had the vote gone the other way though, out of sheer frustration. On the other hand, I am shocked and ashamed of the many many educated, middle class people taking to social media to pour scorn on the 'thick chavs' and older voters who 'hate immigrants more than they love their grandchildren' - people genuinely arguing that uneducated, working class people and those over the age of 65 have no right to a say in any of this. Insults like this are hate crime as well, so please could Remainers stop trying to claim the moral high ground. We all need to work together now.

caitlinohara

I quite agree, hatred and nasty generalisation comments by remain voters about leave voters who don't hold racist views is just as divisive as the racists' remarks.

I hope we all do work together in this, but tbh, I don't think the rise in nationalism is down to people wanting to work together but in better ways. I think the current problems stem from nobody knowing what to do about world overpopulation, climate change, inequality, violent extremism, wars and greed, and individual countries wanting to protect their own interests at the expense of others. This was happening despite the EU, which proved itself totally inadequate to stop it. It will continue to happen without it.

roundaboutthetown I'm sure this has been pointed out many times, but the reason for the rise in nationalism in this country amongst the working classes is because they have not had a political party listening to their concerns and fighting for their interests. This is entirely - entirely - the Labour party's fault, and I can only hope that they are the ones to fix it. If they can get their heads around this and remember who they are and what they are for, it's an open goal.

Huh. The Labour Party is still under the influence of people who think that Tony Blair was a good thing.

caitlinohara

That's an excellent point. I'm a socialist and despair that the divide between rich and poor has continued to get wider and those who have suffered as a result don't have a more mainstream voice for them.

This is the danger of an elitist establishment hell bent only on self betterment without ensuring their social responsibilities to nurture others.

Joysmum Cameron's off, Farage obsolete, Tories bickering amongst themselves, calls for Juncker to step down, haven't seen hide nor hair of the LibDems. I'm really struggling to see a downside. Looks like Corbyn is about to resign so if we can elect a new leader to appeal to those who left Labour for Ukip and the many working class people who didn't vote at the last GE but did vote Leave in the referendum, I think that's a golden opportunity.

"What the Remainers did and are doing is re-confirm to themselves that ethnicity is the most important concern"

Nope it came up and I gave my opinion, which is that going, it's not all leave voters, it's not about race is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and ignoring it...and ignoring it validates the racists because to them that's as good as supporting it.

Libdems are pledging to fight the next election based on rejoining the EU!

More likely scenario: working class voters are turned off by the chaos in the Labour Party and turn in greater numbers to the BNP; and those who negotiate Brexit follow the requirements of big business, global trade and the City, despite deepening inequality, because the voices listened to are still those with the money, not those without.

Hmm, it's difficult.

I find myself a reluctant voter in GEs because my chosen party moved so far away from their core values I was left with no clear alternative.

Of course there are few people who agree 100% with the party the vote for but I really do fall in the centre of the Venn diagram between 3. It leaves me dissatisfied no matter what way I vote

...anyway, I've gone off on a tangent

Asprrilla11

Why are you not responding to me? This is what I don't get about Leavers. They can't actually debate! They have their views... and that's it. Like they're wearing blinders or something.

And.... I haven't launched into this 'racist' thing even. All just facts.

I originally posted here, simply supporting the OP, as shes absolutly right to have the views she had, but also to address the looking forward question. It seems the remains are still wishing to dispute the views of both the OP and also the leaves. Im not sure why, but I will just endorse all of what the OP has said, and add my additional views to that, as to why I voted as I did.

Eu Commisioners.... All that the OP has said, plus the fact that the auditors responsible for auditing the the EU commission, has for the last 5 years, refused to sign off the accounts for the commision due to substantial discrepancies. 5 years? Do we infact need a 'World Commission' to monitor and police the EU Commision and ensure they, not only abide by international law on accounting and accountability (which when talking about public money, should not only be transparent, squeeky clean and above any suggestion if mis-appropriation), or do we scrap it? Why have the remainers not addressed this issue? Why are the remainers happy to accept this situation? Thats what bemuses me.

EU Economy.... All the Op has said, the EU economy has been and continues to decline. Plus, What started out as an small, western European alliance, has continued unabated on its agenda to expand at all costs. I feel the remainers beleive that continued expansion of the EU brings continued economic growth. I fundamentally disagree on this.

The EU is highly attractive to struggling underperfoming nations, and will continue to be so. As long as EU economic policy continues as it does, and the policy surrounding 'free movement of EU citizens' remains unchallenged, the EU economy in its 'whole' will continue in its downward trend. How low can it go? The remainers beleive it may 'balance out', I fundamentally beleive it will tank to the bottom.

How does the EU add wealth to the pot? Expand the EU to include the US? China? Can the remainers explain how they would revers the chronic downward economic trend of the EU?

UK Economy..... and Immigration (as for me they are inextricably tied)
All the OP has said, plus I am old enough to remember a pre EU, UK. No Im not harking back to nostalgic times through rose tinted glasses, but I am bereft, that the UK now has to import fish from other EU states, caught in its own waters. The UK has been refused permission to fish at a level that would and did support its own people. That permission was then given to other EU states to sell back to us. The same quantities of fish are being caught, but simply the EU dictated who could catch and sell it. The steel industry, the same. Once one of the major suppliers of steel, now decimated. How has a union of europe, a single market trade deal, done anything but add costs to any area of manufacturing in the UK? As weve seen in RL, where the EU placed a cost on membership and a cost on all goods produced in the EU, Chinese steel, simply sweeps in to clear up the pickings. Would the EU have worked if it refused to allow imports from outside the EU? If it had created a trade 'union' where member states only could trade amongst themselves? Possibly. But that isnt indeed, what the single market is about. If it were, not one piece of Chinese steel would be on UK soil.

To respond to this the remains appear to suggest that the good folk of St Helens, move to London and work in the banking sector. Banking has thrived under the EU 'passport scheme'. For the first time in my life, I have voted against the 'high earner/high tax payer/large welfare pot donation' principle. Quite simply because the cost to have acheived this boom in the banking sector, has been far higher, than the benefits gained. The remains and leaves will continue to disagree on this point, but whilst the country remains under austerity measures, whilst the NHS crumbles with a demand for services that cant be met (irrespective of the employment status of the user), whilst schools and care facilities fail under the pressure of demand, the basic principle of higher tax income from a booming wealthy sector, results in better infrastructure and benefits for all, has been shown to be false. The remains will argue, well the austerity would be even worse, I argue, would it?

There has been plenty of time to ensure the wealth created was distributed to the services needed to support it, it wasnt pre referendum, why on earth should anything have changed post referendum if the remains had won? Remains voted for the status quo. I voted because the status quo was failing in ....... dramatic style. The issue quite ironically, was the wealthy werent earning enough.

London had protected itself, and I can completely see the case for an Independant London. tHe attraction of manipulating the wealth earning capacity around London centric policies, whilst cutting adrift the financial burden of the shires, Londoners net profits and net wealth would indeed continue to increase 10 fold!

Why oh why then would London vote to withdraw from a 'free movement of people' policy that opened a highly profitable market to them, when, as has happened, you can then remove those 'undesirable' peoples out of the area? Our seaside towns are today, unrecognisable, filled with Londoners who didnt match up to the wealth generating model London has created. Londoners today have quickly forgotten they evicted a vote.

Scotland, has of course utterly differing reasons to remain. Someone else is paying the bill for scottish policies. Blinded by an unhealthy hatred for Westminster, Scotland strongly beleives they can self support, but would like the 'security' of the EU if they cant. If scotland wishes to continue with free health, free education, free elderly care for all its residents, and that they can continue to provide that with a 'free movement' policy (yes the scottish border will be inundated whilst their 'free' policies exist) then so be it. But if the UK failed with that model, why do the Scots beleive they will succeed? They wont be able, as London has done, to move the 'burdensome' across the border and out of their region, maintaining only the wealth producers.

In short, the EU policy of free movement has indeed failed. For every highly educated scientist that has migrated, 10,000 low skilled have followed. Free movement has indeed failed in any country offering anything 'free' irrespective of having to wait a period of time to claim it. Migrants will wait. The lifetime benefits far outweigh, the short term 'waiting' period.

I voted leave because the status quo doesnt work and the price we are asked to pay as a nation, far outweighs the perceived benefits of remaining. I didnt vote for a 'what if' decision. I didnt vote on the promise of some non existant 'Brexit Party'. I voted because I beleive the principles of the EU have failed. They failed us as a nation, and theyve failed the other EU member states.

Democracy ........National Democracy was eroded by the Lisbon Treaty, but again, where the principles of an 'overseer' may have been good, the RL execution of that treaty failed. Instead of the 'overseer', they became the issuer of new law and regulations. If a democratic people have no means to affect the laws they must live under, (and the UK objected 55 times, and were slapped down 55 times) that nation is no longer a democracy. The EU sold member states the idea of a 'second level' of democracy. All national democracy being protected, then a further democratic organisation protecting the union as a whole. The execution of that was the opposite.

Perhaps if the response to the refugee crisis, had been the one enshrined in EU law, that refugees must register in the first EU country they enter, instead of waving them through, Hungary (how legal is that fence by the way?), Bulgaria, Italy, up,through, Croatia, Slovakia, through Austria, France, to then really upset the Calais Mayor, whilst they attempt to enter the Uk, perhaps just perhaps we may have voted differently.

So whilst remains, believe we have a circular argument that boils down to racism, its quite simply an utter failure of everything the EU spins itself to be. For me, it was a tres simple decision, perhaps a shared understanding will help, or perhaps as the OP has seen, remains refuse to listen, and its cost them greatly.

If you read my comment correctly you'll see that it was about how the leave vote has fuelled racial hatred

And fraudulent behaviour (re the petitiuon), by all accounts.

Race relations/ethnicity aren't 'be-all-and-end-all of everything. Other things matter as well.

My personal view is that this is entirely caused by politicians in cahoots with unfettered capitalism. As always, they thought they could hoodwink ordinary citizens in all manner of ways. Completely agree regarding working together to create a better society for everybody. On the plus side, the markets are looking steady. We've seen bigger moves on Greece defaulting, Lehman's, Volkwagen, Deutche Bank nearly going bankrupt. FTSE still 10% higher than its low in Feb.. It suits many Bilderbergers if it crashed off but it isn't doing. It's not carnage and entirely within the realm of expectations.