Why is Scotland so different?

[Indiestarr]

Does anyone have any insight? Presumably Scotland has the same post-industrial decline and deprivation issues as the north east of England and Wales, and yet their vote was pretty much the complete opposite of these areas. How is it they are almost uniformly progressive when the rest of the UK (NI aside) is anything but?

Scotland and edinburgh especially definitely has its public school old boys type network but I don't think it's nearly as pervasive as it is down south - law may we be different but certainly I've either in FS in quite a few of the big Edinburgh companies and they seem to be relatively meritocratic. There can actually be a fair bit of inverse snobbery and I know a fair few ex public schoolboys including folk from titled families and it doesn't seem to have given them the leg up which it would in London. Similarly the grad intake for the big 4 consultancy I worked for - in London it waa dominated by privately educated Oxbridge folk where the Scottish intake was far more diverse.

agree, the public school side of things is much less pervasive than in London, Heriots, EA, Stewart's Melville are about 1/3 of the cost of the big public schools and attract a different crowd of parents who are hard working professionals (disclaimer, no DC at these schools!)

Just because the Edinburgh Merchant Schools are 'cheaper' than some London schools doesn't mean they 'attract a different crowd of parents'.

And, the old boy network is alive and well in the Law, I can tell you.
Only here, it isn't just £/School it is also political / religious (see the Donald Findlay ref upthread).

And, given the attainment gap is ever widening in Scottish Schools, the accessibility for poorer students is ever worsening can you really say that Scotland is so meritocratic???

Maybe for Nicola's generation (and it is different in Glasgow/Edinburgh/central belt anyway) but not any more. The SNP have seen to that!

The hard core posh element tend to be either Loretto or fettes but they aren't big enough to have the sort of pervasiveness of Eton.

I'm not Nicola's generation really, I'm younger. But my office and my previous offices have been rammed full of people who are doing well without moneyed backgrounds or private school educations. As I say I can totally believe law is different, FIL was a lawyer and basically got where he was because of daddy.

The hard core posh element tend to be either Loretto or fettes but they aren't big enough to have the sort of pervasiveness of Eton
I met some Fettes kids last week as they were looking at our sheep at the Highland Show. They had Scottish accents. That is one thing that binds us together.

And what if you don't have a Scottish accent?
My ds was born (and made) in Scotland.
I am English but have lived her 25 years (more than half my adult life).
He has an English accent (not a posh one, but an English one).
He has been told to 'go home'.
We have been told by his School that he has no educational needs but 'a right English accent like his parents'. (in fact he has dyslexia, dysgraphia and dyscalculia and dyspraxia traits).
His sister, strangely, has a far more local accent. She has not (yet) been told to 'fuck off home'. They are both clear that an English accent is not desireable as it 'makes it scary'.

Yes, no 'work to be done' up here at all. Esp with a 2nd IndyRef looming.

Why do I keep hearing the English saying Scotland hate them and that we trying to get our own back? I can assure you that is not the case. We wanted independence because Westminster have told us nothing but lies and made false promises. Westminster promised that if we voted to stay that we would remain in the European union.
Look where we are now, out of the union.
What we hate is an English government telling us what to spend our money on. It wasn't that long ago it was quoted.....English laws for English people.
We would like Scottish laws for Scottish people. We live here after all.
We have never had an issue with Europeans living here either, we are thankful for their help filling jobs that the lazy benefit cheats can't be arsed doing. Jobs that need done one way or another.
We also like the freedom to be able to travel to other European countries and the idea that if war is declared on us that we would have the support of the countries in the union.
We don't want war we want peace and the opportunity to get on with it. That is why our vote to remain was so high.
I wouldn't be surprised if Scotland vote out of the UK in the future, we are sick of the Tories, Labour and all the other arseholes running the country. I won't be voting for any of them. If Boris gets in we are finished.
I will sit back and watch the English who voted remain move to Scotland. SNP all the way.

Lots to amuse on this thread and elsewhere at the moment. Tony Blair went to Fettes. I was a bit disgusted when the conclusion the Labour party drew from his defeat was that Gordon Brown was too Scottish. Ironic that Michael Gove and Liam Fox, both Scottish, are now looking to be very much to the fore in the Conservative Party. There is much anti-Gove/Fox feeling but it doesn't seem to be much to do with Scottishness.

I think the PLP has a problem with xenophobia (ie anyone not within the London bubble doesn't count) but everyone else seems to be much more open whether that be with regards to regions of the UK, Europe, the EU or internationally. (I am Glaswegian so obviously I am never going to see eye to eye with the Aberdonians, Edinburghers or country bumpkins on the thread - I hope it is obvious I am in jest but I do object to the SNP and NS's tendency to talk of Scots as suffering from Borglike groupthink)

We have been told by his School that he has no educational needs but 'a right English accent like his parents'. (in fact he has dyslexia, dysgraphia and dyscalculia and dyspraxia traits). Well that's a disgrace. Did he have an independent assessment?

or country bumpkins on the thread Do you want a square go?

could have said worse derxa. I come from farming stock and have spent many a happy weekend at the Highland Show with my Dad. It cannot be denied surely that there are a fair few egotistical headbangers in the farming community even if there are loads more in George Square, Ibrox and Parkhead

DH is English but sadly he despairs of ever teaching our DC to speak properly like what he does.

there are a fair few egotistical headbangers in the farming community I am a proud member of that group. You have to be to survive in this industry.

I know Blair went to fettes, I didn't say there was no elitism just that I don't think it's as bad as down south. And Blair's pre politics career was law which I agree is worse.

I started off doing a law degree and I freely confess that it was filled with pretentious wankers .

derxa Yes. Indy assess by the person who advises Holyrood on dyslexia policy (and does most of the private school kids). After which the local authority admitted he was dyslexic. But the comment still stands. I spoke to my SNP MP and she said that I'd never get anywhere given where I live. Spoke to Govan Law Centre. They didn't exactly chuckle but said: it's just a bit of banter. NO, it's racism. I have it all on tape. I have a letter from the LA confirming that 'accent can affect learning'. Now, there are plans afoot to say that his dyslexia has improved and he wont need support (he's not had any qualified support anyway...). Good, huh?

I have a letter from the LA confirming that 'accent can affect learning' Well it certainly has an effect on phonological awareness.

that sounds awful daily - it sounds very worrying and rubbish.

I do think that public schools in Scotland are less cut off from the rest of us. Is Fettes a boarding school? Most of the private schools here aren't boarding, as far as I know, and the kids remain part of their local community to some extent, rather than being totally cut off from it. Edinburgh's private schools aside, the vast majority in Scotland attend the local comprehensive and mix more. We haven't got much of a grammar school system here either, which also tends to divide kids by attainment. I would expect that a lot of Scottish students attend Scottish universities because of free tuition fees, too - I know I didn't even consider going down south because then my parents would have had to pay fees on top of living costs. In my school year only 3 kids went to an English uni, and they all had very well-off parents.

Statistically I have a Scottish Law degree and cannot deny there is a fair amount of old boy network around. However I can also attest to loads of local comp educated friends from all backgrounds who are now in positions of influence. NS is far from the exception and I would not want to encourage any perception that the professions are closed to the non privately educated. To my mind it is talk like this which increases the aspiration gap and ultimately the attainment gap (that does not mean that I think there is not work to do in sorting out equality of opportunity).

daily it does sound like there is a problem with your school / area which needs addressing.

do all children with an English accent have reading difficulties then, derxa ? Mine have gone from having an American accent to having an English one, different to both mine and dh's and haven't had any problems at all.

do all children with an English accent have reading difficulties then, derxa
No but if you're dyslexic differences between the home accent and the teacher's accent must make a difference. Differences in accent are differences in vowel sounds- the most complex part of both spoken and written English.
In my accent poor and paw are not homophones. In some English accents they are.

We would like Scottish laws for Scottish people. We live here after all

Er, what do you think Holyrood does? It churns out statute after statute.

England was only asking that Scottish MPs didn't interfere on legislation which had no impact on Scotland.

Yes, of course. But that's for the professional to manage as it is not the fault of the student that they are either dyslexic or don't come from the same place as the teacher.

How about I thought it waa clear I was joking. It wasn't me who originally said about law as a profession, I agreed it may be different to my experience which is financial services cos I wouldn't tell someone what their industry is like. My particular intake for law at Edinburgh was a bit odd but it may well have just been that class .

If you look further up I was arguing that Scotland is more meritocratic

But that's for the professional to manage as it is not the fault of the student that they are either dyslexic or don't come from the same place as the teacher. I fully agree.