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Brexit

Why is Scotland so different?

430 replies

Indiestarr · 26/06/2016 13:10

Does anyone have any insight? Presumably Scotland has the same post-industrial decline and deprivation issues as the north east of England and Wales, and yet their vote was pretty much the complete opposite of these areas. How is it they are almost uniformly progressive when the rest of the UK (NI aside) is anything but?

OP posts:
claig · 02/07/2016 21:18

I think you can see a real difference between Scotland and England if you look at Thatcher. Thatcher was despised by the English upper class, the old boy network, and was also despised by socialists in England and Scotland. But Thatcher was loved mainly by the English middle class and aspirant lower working class in places like Basildon, Essex. They liked her because they thought she was on their side for aspiration and opportunity and would restrict their progress and freedom to succeed less than the socialists or upper class Tories.

The middle class have been held down by the upper classes who fear them and their demands for more rights and freedoms and power.

As upper class socialist, Tristram Hunt, says in his article "Victory of the middle class", their success has been due to their wish for self-government, nonconformism. Opposition to being told what to do whether by Brussels bureaucrats, bigwigs, the state or busybodies defines the middle class of Middle England.

"With industrialisation and urbanisation the economic power of the Victorian middle classes expanded. And with reforms to local government and the national franchise so did their political muscle. As their standing grew, they became less reserved about expressing their cultural self-confidence. The iconography of nonconformist chapels, museums, stock exchanges, banks, factories, even baths and washhouses, became testimonies to the creativity and prosperity of the middle classes. The sumptuously decorated Victorian town hall and grand city piazza were affirmations of the middle-class tradition of self-government which Guizot had traced back to Roman times and through to the Italian Renaissance. When Titus Salt designed his mills at Saltaire outside Bradford, he did so consciously evoking the Renaissance style of previous merchant princes.

By the latter half of the 19th century, middle-class culture dominated Britain's provincial towns and cities. From the novels of Dickens to the Hallé orchestra, from the multiplying fortresses of unitarian worship to the lecture series of literary and philosophical societies, middle-class culture proudly outshone aristocratic philistinism. As the 19th became the 20th century, the middle class continued to grow. In 1941, Orwell quizzically remarked on the tendency of advanced capitalism to enlarge the middle class and not wipe it out. He went on to detail with brilliant intimacy the spread of middle-class habits among the working class. But that initial pioneer spirit of the Victorian bourgeoisie, the sense of middle-class election vitally linked to a nonconformist conscience was gone. And by the 1970s Huber saw the unique values of the middle class - thrift, responsibility, self-sacrifice - whittled away by a socialist establishment.

Today as our supremely bourgeois Queen prepares to celebrate her golden jubilee, it's clear the middle classes are back, wealthier and more confident than ever. For when John Prescott can declare, as the deputy prime minister of a Labour government, that we are "all middle class now" in the same manner as William Harcourt once announced that we were all socialists - then the bourgeoisie has surely won the great historical class struggle."

www.theguardian.com/uk/2002/may/10/britishidentity.socialsciences

I think it comes down to the fact that Scotland is much more socialist than England. Scotland disliked Thatcher much more than England, Scotland believes more in egalitarianism than England, while England values libertarianism and freedom above socialism and egalitarianism. It is essentailly the old battle of left and right, socialism and conservatism, Godon Brown and Donald Dewar and Thatcher and Farage.

tabulahrasa · 02/07/2016 21:26

" I think there is a difference in state vs independence, socialism versus liberalism as shown by named person etc"

Depends what you think the whole named person thing is for and does...

People against it think it's state interference in parenting and that teachers or health visitors will be spending huge amounts of time reporting on all children.

I'm a trustee of a children's charity and I trained as a teacher, I don't see that it's that at all, I see it as forcing agencies who should be sharing information to actually do that and making it harder for children where there are concerns to slip through the net, as far as I can see it will have no impact on the vast majority of people and in areas where it's been in place for a while actually reduced reporting.

So what you take from it as far as what it shows depends very much on where you're getting your information about it.

claig · 02/07/2016 21:30

'So what you take from it as far as what it shows depends very much on where you're getting your information about it.'

No, I think it essentially comes down to socialism vs conservatism, the state vs the individual.

I don't think it would fly in England because England is more conservative and more opposed to state intrusion, whereas Scotland is more socialist and more trusting of the state.

StatisticallyChallenged · 02/07/2016 21:34

You've clearly not been hanging around in the same Scotland as me, there's significant mistrust of the state here; bear in mind that the second party in Scotland at the moment is the Tories who were primarily elected on a ticket of opposing the SNP - who huge numbers of Scots don't trust.

I think you're dreaming if you think NP couldn't happen in England.

claig · 02/07/2016 21:39

Farage for instance would oppose it. Kezia Dugdale seems to be all for it (as Blair and other socialists would probably be also). I don't know how strongly Ruth Davidson has really opposed it, but I don't see her more as an Establishment favourit type of conservative than an independent one such as Farage or Thatcher or Reagan would be.

Reagan sums up the undependent conservative streak rather than the Establishment ones with his famous statement

"The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help"

That is the Farage independent tradition, rather than a Ruth Davidson one

claig · 02/07/2016 21:42

'I think you're dreaming if you think NP couldn't happen in England.'

Only under Blair, along with biometric ID cards and DNA databases, or the EU with their internet passport IDs etc as championed by the former communist Estonian in charge of it. Now that we are leaving the EU, it will be a long time before that will happen in England.

howabout · 03/07/2016 12:16

I am of the same view on NP as tabulahrasa and I have a new school starter so am seeing all the arrangements in practice.

I think, given the serious concerns about the balance of protection in child services in England as well as Scotland, it will be swiftly adopted in England if it has a positive impact.

Interesting that Scotland is sometimes a positive testbed generating policy now - eg adoption of variable stamp duty by GO. Complete juxtaposition with having poll tax imposed first.

Agree with Claig that Scotland may be more socialist in outlook. There is more or less consensus that social justice is good for the have nots as well as the haves. Social cohesion is seen as a positive good, but the economy is also more homogenous so this is easier to maintain.

Reported on Andrew Marr that NS is looking for clear guarantees on the status of 170k EU citizens living in Scotland. This is not very many in the context of a 5.5 million population. Theresa May was decidedly equivocal on the issue on Peston so as far as I'm concerned she can wear as much tartan as she likes but she won't win much Scottish endorsement.

MissMargie · 03/07/2016 20:21

I see it as forcing agencies who should be sharing information to actually do that

Well, its a hammer to crack a nut.

You surely just find a way of making agencies share info - bringing in another agency who may or may not succeed in also sharing info is ridiculous.
Bad that agencies can not do their job properly and get away with it.

TooExtraImmatureCheddar · 04/07/2016 15:47

I don't know whether NP is a sledgehammer to crack a nut - if it makes any children safer it's okay in my book. I'm a parent in Scotland and I don't care if there is a nominal named person looking out for my kids. The way I see it, I'm not doing anything wrong, so it won't affect me. If I was doing something, or if I missed someone else putting my kids at risk, then I would want it stopped. I don't understand why so many see it as a huge problem. If they thought it was a waste of state resources, then I can understand that, but it's the complete outrage at the mere idea that I don't get.

tabulahrasa · 04/07/2016 15:52

"You surely just find a way of making agencies share info - bringing in another agency who may or may not succeed in also sharing info is ridiculous."

There isn't another agency being brought in...

MissMargie · 04/07/2016 15:59

I'm not doing anything wrong
But maybe DCs fall out at school and there are rumours about home life/ bullying - info goes between school and NP, SServices, you aren't involved yet as they need to investigate.....

Would they check with GP to see if there are any issues there.
I live in a small village, really hate the thought of 'caring professionals' investigating me and mine behind my back. Is there a risk of info being leaked or rumours about the checking up getting out? Well if it involves SS, GP surgery, and school I would say there is a possibility in a close community.
Of course that shouldn't happen but then, the reason this was brought in was because professionals didn't do their job correctly.

tabulahrasa · 04/07/2016 16:03

"But maybe DCs fall out at school"

See that's exactly the sort of paranoia I've seen people discussing...why on earth do you think perfectly normal child at school stuff would trigger an investigation?

MissMargie · 04/07/2016 16:15

Depends on what is said by whom?

Anything said by the children, which sounds odd could raise an investigation.
I can't see what they are going to do which SServices / health services didnt' already do.
I suspect that lack of resources at SS and Police possibly lead to things being missed/ staff overstretched. This seems to be an attempt to fix that without spending any money. As long as NP has the time to do the work that SS and Police didn't it will probably improve outcomes for DCs but if this isn't the case there will prob not be a change.

tabulahrasa · 04/07/2016 17:05

"I can't see what they are going to do which SServices / health services didnt' already do."

Currently issues are flagged up about children that aren't serious enough to warrant immediate SS intervention, but are worrying, they can be happening in multiple places, but they don't all arrive at the same person, so there's never a complete picture of what is going wrong.

Places like out of school care or play schemes can have concerns but unless it's something that warrants immediate safeguarding action, again it doesn't always get to the right place, if they have a good relationship with the school and if the school is on the ball it may go towards building a case for SS intervention, but equally it may just disappear...and parents can make it go away by withdrawing their children from services.

There are also issues with children with fairly major issues going on at home, but because they don't already have SS involvement nobody ever really checks in with them, so they go completely unnoticed and issues with children who do have SS involvement but slip through the net because they move LAs or social workers are off sick.

With young children there's been a move to only provide health visitor checks to targeted people, low incomes, young mothers, people known to SS...which means that people having difficulties who aren't targeted aren't being seen.

It needs money, but, it is not in itself a bad idea that will lead to more intervention when it's not needed.

It's just putting what already is best practice into legislation.

DailyMailEthicalFail · 04/07/2016 17:10

MissMargie I live in a small village. I can tell you how it can go very wrong, even before the NP legislation gives so much power to an unqualified person.

What if the NP is someone you have already put in a formal compliant about and now has an axe to grind?

tabulahrasa · 04/07/2016 17:32

If your child's guidance teacher, head teacher, year head or health visitor is someone with an axe to grind who is willing to risk their career over it then quite frankly you already have an issue, they don't need to be the NP to do that.

DailyMailEthicalFail · 04/07/2016 17:51

Agreed, tabulahrasa

However, the NP legislation gives them infinitely more power.

DailyMailEthicalFail · 04/07/2016 17:52

and they dont 'risk their career over it'.
do you know how many teachers are sacked for such behaviour? None.
There is no authority in Scotland you can go to, except the SPSO.
And they are toothless.
So, there is no 'career risk' at all.

tabulahrasa · 04/07/2016 18:03

GTC.

DailyMailEthicalFail · 04/07/2016 19:35

GTC?

prettybird · 04/07/2016 19:46

General Teaching Council

tabulahrasa · 04/07/2016 21:15

Sorry that was me being as quick as I could on my way out the door, I should have waited, lol.

Yes, the general teaching council, if you're not on the register you can't teach in Scotland and they do suspend and strike teachers off the register.

There's no way misusing safeguarding and child protection procedures vindictively is anything other than professional misconduct.

BreakingDad77 · 05/07/2016 09:34

I wondered if it was because they like I do saw that it was central gov/westminsters fault for most of these problems that English leave voters thought the EU was at fault for.

DailyMailEthicalFail · 05/07/2016 11:59

"There's no way misusing safeguarding and child protection procedures vindictively is anything other than professional misconduct."

I agree. But you need to prove it.
And then you need a body who wants to listen to you / pursue it.
And then some action needs taking in light of professional misconduct.

Who would that be, then???
What are the figures for Scottish teachers being disciplined / struck off???

howabout · 05/07/2016 12:08

I think from the tone of the conversations I hear most parents would be shocked at the level of involvement schools already have with social services. The schools I know struggle to resource addressing the cases for concern they are made aware of by SS etc and are very very far from looking for more cases to refer.

I think you are right in part BreakingDad