To be furious if this is true-the freedom of movement

[Rebecca2014]

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/evan-davis-newsnight-bbc-daniel-hannan-mep-eu-referendum-brexit_uk_576e2967e4b08d2c56393241

Seriously? majority of people who voted for leave wanted control of our borders, we brought into your story of an Australian style point system now it seems there's still going be freedom of labour movement which is basically the same thing expect they get less legal rights.

I didn't just vote leave for immigration but yes it was a big reason and if I known this, if remain had a better hammered this home I bet MANY leave voters would not have voted the way they did. If anything if this happens, many leave voters will join the remain voters in rage at the lies we been fed. (NHS, Immigration)

I have been a vocal leave supporter on here but now I am feeling pretty scared about what I have voted for. I blame the remain campaign for having an totally shit and ineffective campaign and Cameron should never have been the leader of the remain camp, as majority of people despise him and don't take any notice of what he says.

'I was looking forward to the end of referendum so everyone could come together again. So this post-result hissy fit is way more disappointing to me than if 'Remain' had won.'

I really wish people would stop with all this childish terminology like 'hissy fit' as though those people who voted Remain are a bit peeved that they've lost at a game of pass the parcel.

Brexit is massive. The vote was two days ago. So please just shut up with all the schoolmarmish chastising that the Remain camp aren't playing very nicely and the witless musings like 'why can't we all just come together again'.

We do not know how the negotiations will go, but if we do have uncontrolled immigration and have to implement EU laws then that missed the point of the whole leave campaign

^This is what I was agreeing with.......for the purpose of clarity.

So, you still believe the leave campaign about taking back control of our borders?

I am furious with this op. It wasn't a secret you wouldn't have had to research very hard to work that out.
Only you are responsible for your voting decisions

cate
At 23:12 you posted this
"Nothing new there then.....the EU is used to dictating terms. They maybe the worlds largest trading bloc but they are a far cry from democratic."

And from there I started talking to you. Over the last few pages you have tried hard not putting in a solid argument with some facts or figures about EU being undemocratic and seem to resent the fact that the EU will deal with us on their terms when negotiations actually take place. This is what I have been trying to engage you on, not on the point that whether negotiation will take place or not.

BengalCatMum - are you kidding?

You are disappointed that after millions of people have had their jobs, mortgages and savings endangered, in many cases now face borders going up between them and their loved ones, and have a fundamental part of their identity stripped away from them they haven't made you feel good about doing that?

Do you also run over people's feet in the street and then get annoyed at their bossy fit when you drive away? After all, the accident is done, and people should come together. Because that comment shows a staggering lack of empathy.

And Leave repeatedly said that there would still be movement of people. Or is your plan to leave the common market and erect a closed border between Eire and Northern Ireland? Because that's the only way to have hard borders around the UK. Maybe checkpoints at Carlisle when Scotland leave?

decaff
exactly. cate looks like thinking that the negotiations are something to look forward to using the Leave result as a bargain chip or something. To get "our" terms approved by EU on laws that are NOT going to be negotiated anyway.

I guess only time will tell.
I believe there will be some give and take but my hope is that we won't be completely ruled by an undemocratic body, which is what the EU is. That leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Furthermore, I hope for some element of control on immigration, perhaps not full control, but some control.
Before people start picking me off as a racists, I'm from a hugely diverse area, and proud of it. Where I live 61% of the residence where born in the UK, compared with 86.6% for the rest of England and Wales.The remainder of the residence consist of 2 in every 5 have migrated to the UK. The vote was 54% leave. I'm also the daughter of immigrant parents.

I wasn't suggesting that we might have a vote or veto at the negotiating table but asking if we would have our veto or voting rights in the EU parliament for the next 2 years or so as we will still be a member of the EU.
The treaty that gives us the right to have our border control on the French side of the channel in Calais is nothing to do with the EU it is a treaty between France and the UK so will have to be looked at quite separately.
As for trade agreements we have traded with countries like the USA for years without a trade agreement in fact the EU only as trade agreements with 50 odd countries throughout the world and there are about 250ish. We can trade with them all. We just need to pay a tariff and we can do the same with the EU if need be. What's so daft about that?

cate
It's glaringly obvious now isn't it ? You have just unintentiinally told us what prompted you to vote. And you still haven't enlightened us why you think EU is undemocratic.
Regardless, I get what you say about your parents being immigrants. That's where the fear of foreigners comes from. The foreigners taking up the blue collar jobs that the locals could do. This is why my neighbouring district voted surprisingly for Leave. Not surprisingly one bit for me mind. The district consists of a largely impoverished first or second generation immigrants. They are bound to feel threatened. It's a bit of an irony. Immigrants calling for toning down immigration once they settle down themselves somewhat.

Valentine
You really do require the spoon held closer to your mouth. I'm at a loss to understand why you require me to disclose information regarding my opinion that the EU is undemocratic, but I will humour you for this one point, then you can go off and work at being offended by someone else.

The Commission is made up of 28 unelected commissioners, who cannot be held to account. Each commissioner has a specific policy area in which to create laws. The Commission has a President (currently Jean-Claude Juncker); unlike the other 27 commissioners he is personally elected by the European Parliament, however his was the only name on the ballot paper, not exactly democratic. The Commission is advised by the Directorate General, which along with the Commission is heavily lobbied. Once the Commission proposes an EU law, this proposal is taken to the Parliament.

Corbyn has absolutely ruled out an EU referendum #2 despite the petition now exceeding 2 million people: "we have got to accept that decision and work out our relationship with Europe in the future"
Doesn't sound like the dozy git realises the shit we're in - or he's happy for Labour to be elected in 2025 by a much poorer country.

Labour MPs are organising (apparently 80% of them on board so far) to topple him because they believe there will be a General Election within 4 months and that Labour under him will be slaughtered.
Well, let's see if they bottle it. Tories are far more ruthless with their leaders.

Boris & Gove are assembling their Dream Team to take over the Tory Party and lead the UK out of the EU. Austerity coming your way soon.

BUT David Lammy (London Labour MP) has said the referendum is NOT binding and has called for Parliament to vote to stay in the EU
"Wake up. We do not have to do this,"
He'd better bloody hurry and organise this with other MPs of all parties, before Boris catches Labour with their trousers down and scorches to a big majority.
Come on Lammy, keep us in, PLEASE !

corcory
I think we will be able to talk over things if we actually postpone the article 50. Cameron has effectively done that. But again, I don't think it will be a proper two way negotiation.
Your point about Calaise: the mayor of Calaise has already indicated today that this particular situation is not going to continue. It's a matter of time only.
About your point that there are 250 nations in the world etc etc. Honestly that's is why we are calling the Leavers thick. You really believe we actually manufacture and produce a lot in UK right now don't you? sorry but we don't really. Our economy is mainly propped up on an artificially puffed up property market and the financial hub of London. Once the EU is gone, the property is going to come down for a bit and that's when the real moneyed foreigners will actually swoop in. In a decade or so, you won't be able to buy a toilet around London and the rest of the country would have rotten further because a huge amount of money is needed to invest in those areas that the eu was doing. Government of uk won't do it as now they have to deal with the shock that Bank of England absorbed so far and the £250 billion that got wiped off in a whoosh.
Do I now have to ice you a lecture on what kind of job losses are we looking at probably?

Furthermore, I hope for some element of control on immigration, perhaps not full control, but some control.

Where are you getting this hope from, did you read the first page of this thread, the first link?

Sorry i forgot to add this: when the property will be down, the chances are the banks won't bother giving you mortgages and the foreign buyers will buy with cash mainly. So you won't be able to take much advantage of that.
This is a bad scenario. The only certain thing so far to me looks like I don't know right now how many years off of my hard work should I write off now.

AND if Scotland and Ireland go, we are mightily fucked up because we will be left with a very Great Britain.

Valentine
I haven't unintentionally disclosed anything. I haven't hidden the fact that I believe the EU to be undemocratic. It's an opinion held by many, and has been discussed in depth.

I also don't have a fear of foreigners, although I do have a very healthy fear of bigots and those that project opinions onto other people.

cate
Good to see you then. Because a very large number of people I know in your exact circumstances are mighty racists and bogota towards the new immigrants.

Bigots! Sorry I am typing without checking much

NO Valentine I don't believe we manufacture all that much but I was answering a statement made further up the thread where someone stated that we would stop trading entirely if we didn't get a deal. So much has been made of this free trade deal by remain and the fact that we would have to have a deal like Norway and have free movement that I feel it needs to be pointed out that we don't actually need a trade deal at all. I am not thick. This is what Nigel Lawson pointed out the other night on a debate programme.

Oh Cate.

The Commission = Civil Service. Also unelected in the UK.
The EU also has a Parliament (elected, just like in the UK), and a Council (like an upper chamber), composed of elected national ministers. Unlike the House of Lords.

So the EU institutions mirror those of the UK, or of any democracy, and even manage to be more democratic than the UK's, since there's no nonsense like hereditary peerages.

And Cate, you do need a trade deal if you want other countries to buy your goods and services.

They have the power to stop them at the border if they don't like you, or to slap huge tariffs or regulatory barriers on them.

This is why the world has such a complicated system of trade agreements: every country knows it sells its goods abroad, only at the mercy of the countries it wants to sell to.

corcory
So you don't manufacture much in UK, the EU manufacturers will pull out If you ain't in EU (no, there is no way they won't because it's legally binding for eu members to do manufacturing in eu only and we won't be EU then). Now tell me what trade will you and with whom and for how much profit? Competing with China and the whole of EU itself because you just said there is this option of having NO trade deal anyway.

Valentine
So, are you saying that because i'm 2nd generation immigrant then I'm a racist or a bigot? It's unclear. If that isn't the case then I apologise.

At the same time some of those immigrants I made reference to, feel that the Europeans should have to go through the same system they have to go through to get here.

my hope is that we won't be completely ruled by an undemocratic body, which is what the EU is

The EU isn't undemocratic.

In the EU, laws are proposed by an indirectly elected body, which acts as an advisory commission.
Its recommendations are then considered for approval by directly elected representatives of all the countries. They debate, argue and vote.

In the UK, laws are proposed by directly elected representatives.
These laws, after debate and vote, then go to an unelected advisory commission for approval. They debate, argue and vote.

The EU commission conducts far more thorough research, with access to greater experts, than the Lords. One point in its favour.

Whether you prefer the elected body approving the laws (EU) or the unelected body (UK) is probably personal. But it's incorrect to say the EU's not democratic.It's as democratic as any of the member governments, including ours.

However - and here's the kicker - we've had a really big say in the EU until now. Only 2% of its laws have been "imposed" on us. We voted ‘No’ to laws passed at EU level on 56 occasions, abstained 70 times, and voted ‘Yes’ 2,466 times. During our exit negotiations, we'll lose our rights but still be bound by EU law.

Also, if we want to retain free trade in Europe, we'll have to join the EFTA (if they'll have us.) This will mean that, like Norway, we will have to pay in as much as we do now - but won't have any influence and no right of veto. We'll still be bound by EU rules & laws. Therefore, the future of our relationship with Europe will be as 'undemocratic' as Brexiters thought it was before Thursday.