To be furious if this is true-the freedom of movement

[Rebecca2014]

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/evan-davis-newsnight-bbc-daniel-hannan-mep-eu-referendum-brexit_uk_576e2967e4b08d2c56393241

Seriously? majority of people who voted for leave wanted control of our borders, we brought into your story of an Australian style point system now it seems there's still going be freedom of labour movement which is basically the same thing expect they get less legal rights.

I didn't just vote leave for immigration but yes it was a big reason and if I known this, if remain had a better hammered this home I bet MANY leave voters would not have voted the way they did. If anything if this happens, many leave voters will join the remain voters in rage at the lies we been fed. (NHS, Immigration)

I have been a vocal leave supporter on here but now I am feeling pretty scared about what I have voted for. I blame the remain campaign for having an totally shit and ineffective campaign and Cameron should never have been the leader of the remain camp, as majority of people despise him and don't take any notice of what he says.

So basically... UK wants to put on the table the same trade deal we have now but NO free movement of labour. Goods and capital but not chapters 2 & 3.

So why can't some deal be negotiated with EU to do that just chapters 1 & 4. I mean EU haven't before, but what is stopping EU from allowing that for UK now?

We also have to take back any of our nationals the other countries won't tolerate staying, and we need to figure out how to extricate ourselves from the cross border pensions system.

Haven't RTFT sorry, but I must have posted many many times in the lead up to the referendum that leaving the EU was not going to have an impact on immigration. No one wanted to listen. Many of us tried to explain the reality that it most almost inevitable we would still have freedom of movement post-brexit

Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty seems to require formal notification, which starts negotiations which must finish within 2 years unless EU members unanimously extend the negotiation period:

1. Any Member State may decide to withdraw from the Union in accordance with its own constitutional requirements.
2. A Member State which decides to withdraw shall notify the European Council of its intention. In the light of the guidelines provided by the European Council, the Union shall negotiate and conclude an agreement with that State, setting out the arrangements for its withdrawal, taking account of the framework for its future relationship with the Union......

3.. The Treaties shall cease to apply to the State in question from the date of entry into force of the withdrawal agreement or, failing that, two years after the notification referred to in paragraph 2, unless the European Council, in agreement with the Member State concerned, unanimously decides to extend this period.

There seems no way for the EU to start Article 50 itself.
There is theoretically Article 7 under which the EU could suspend the rights of a member country who persistently breaches basic principles of "freedom, democracy, equality and rule of law."
Hardly fits the case, no matter how angry they are.

"Why can't the UK just negotiate...."

Because it is going to be the most depressingly one-sided negotiations ever! All the negotiating strength will rest with the EU. We will have to dance to their tune now.

" I would imagine that Cameron's answer to that has to be that the Referendum was only advisory and is not a formal decision until it's passed by Parliament. But who knows?"

Genuinely no clue, that was my sum total knowledge about what invoking it might be TBH, lol, but they seemed fairly sure it could a legal way for the EU to consider it invoked if they don't want to wait for a new PM.

OK, so posted this before but for some mysterious reason it has disappeared. When Cameron held his re-negotiations with the EU, he renegotiated the following;

EU migrants would have to leave the UK if they didn't find work within 6 months

EU migrants would not have access to the FULL range of UK benefits until they had lived and worked in the UK for 4 years.

Now, this may well be deleted by MNHQ like it was before, but my stance is that it is incredibly difficult for the UK to deport, most likely a large family, after six months. I suspect that many will claim to not have the funds to return to their home country, in which case these funds will be covered by the UK tax payer. Secondly, I strongly think that many will simply refuse to leave the uk and as the EU Human rights act will still apply, this will make it nigh on impossible to deport them. Cameron's renegotiations are not worth the paper they are written on. They will not in any way shape or form help to limit EU migration into the UK. The only way for the UK to limit UK migration is to leave the EU. That is the only way and we need to be brave.

curlie we will need to do a deal with the EU though and I think it is a dead cert that deal will include continued freedom of movement.

Curlie the Eu human rights act is also a UK law. It will still stand once we've left unless we abolish it here.

Do people honestly believe this: "We will, when forced or in our own good time, negotiate our terms"

Really? It's going to be the most depressingly unbalanced negotiations ever and it's going to be very unlikely we will have any ability to influence the terms.

Canada have a trade deal with the EU but don't have free movement- I assumed that would be what brexiteers were going for (with may be slightly better terms as German's want to keep selling us their cars????)

Now it appears that Brexiters would want a more Norway like deal which would include freedom of movement. We would still lose all the finance and manufacturing companies with this as we would still be outside the EU

I am a bit lost?

Human Rights Act is indeed a UK law. It also derives not from the EU but from the completely separate European Convention on Human Rights! It has nothing whatsoever to do with Brexit! (Except that extreme right wingers do want to repeal it, I wonder why that could be, I am sure they have the best intentions )

Only if their understanding is rather, err, limited!
Do people really think the Uk is regarded as so indispensable and marvellous that we can dictate terms to the rest of the EU?? it didn't exactly go so very well did it before and that's before the referendum result saying "we" wanted to leave....

School admissions officer of London primary school - last year the school had 16 New children arriving g in their school from EU countries. When they arrived they were all either Somalilan, Lebanese or Iraqis - all had sought asylum in Europe, mainly holland, they waited the 2 years for citizenship then came directly to UK.
So the figures can be deceiving about where people are coming from and why they are moving.

My suggestion of a GE is only if Boris chooses to call one this October, BEFORE he invokes Article 50, if he thinks he needs a mandate
Yes, we would take the hit for any damage before, but we would not have even started to negotiate leaving

The problem is: calling a new referendum because we didn't like the result is politically impossible and would probably only produce another v narrow results either way.
A GE seems the only practical way tomreverse, because the PM can quite easily call one - easy ways around the 5 year rule.

curlie
Yes we DO get that. BUT did you vote Leave based on the assumption that if we leave, the EU will accept our conditions INCLUDING. the free labour movement clause when they didn't give hardly an inch to Cameron without us having pissed them off by a Leave result?
It's downright stupid and absolutely idiotic if you believed that.

Oh FFS OP - this was EVERYWHERE - if you want to trade with Europe you HAVE to allow free movement. A ten second Google would have shown you that.

Now that I have picked my jaw off the floor I'll read the thread.

I may be wrong but I think it took Canada something like 10 years to negotiate their agreement. What made the Vote Leave camp think that we would be able to do it more quickly? Oh yes, the Germans need us to buy their cars. Which if the economy goes into deep recession will be something we won't be able to afford.

Some people think it's the bloody 19th century. What do they know of England...

Agreed Dixie. Jaw droppingly stupid.

Curlie I posted this reply before to your post about deportation:

Other countries have had this system for years and they do remove people.

I worked in Germany and had to provide evidence from an employer stating my salary, which had to be above the average German salary then.

If I'd lost my job, my employer would have notified the authorities and I'd have had to quickly find another job, or be deported.
They are very efficient about chasing up and expelling people, so they rarely have to do so.

Can I caution you kindly against reading the whole thread Devil? It might give you high blood pressure / a heart attack or make you seriously depressed / angry...

curlie Yes we DO get that. BUT did you vote Leave based on the assumption that if we leave, the EU will accept our conditions INCLUDING. the free labour movement clause when they didn't give hardly an inch to Cameron without us having pissed them off by a Leave result?
It's downright stupid and absolutely idiotic if you believed that.

You know what I am looking forward to, it is getting free from the shackles of the EU and taking control over the destiny of the UK, whether that includes Scotland and possibly even London, or not.

Yes some think the UK is this powerful empire with a huge amount of clout when in fact now she's decided she'd rather be, well I won't say minnow, but a cod compared to the EU whale.

bigchoc
Ok tell me this: in the scenario you write, Boris will almost certainly make Remain his top point in the election agenda. So will Corbyn. So will every other Charles Dick and Harry. Who will you vote then? And how do we decide whether it's a Leave result or a Remain result.
Sorry you come across rather thick to me and as someone who would vote for Leave had there been a referendum in UK on 23rd June.