to think the Remainers aren't going to take this lying down and we won't leave

[SybilEngineer]

A million plus more people voted leave than remain but still over 16 million voted in. And many of the people this will affect - the under 18s - didn't get a say.

The majority of our elected representatives want us to remain as does our capital city.

The EU wants us to remain and once the leaders have stopped throwing their toys around they will realise they need to reform the EU and make changes that will keep UK and all the other eurosceptic people in.

Today has been a body blow for us remainers but, we're shot of Cameron, so we can re-group and start the fight to remain in the EU but with changes that much of Europe wants.

I tried to sign the petition to follow the referendum rules that a turn out of less the 75% and less than 60% majority should trigger a 2nd referendum - fingers crossed the website comes back up!

In my view the Labour Party let their voters down badly and I am saddened by that as I believe more passion and explanation was needed. It will be important for Labour politicians to listen to what their constituents have said.
^^This but the Labour Party's initial response this morning (to blame Corbyn rather than look at how they positioned themselves and their arguments) proves imo that the Labour Party is no more. Traditional Labour heartlands voted leave. There has never been a bigger disconnect between Labour and the people it's supposed to represent; and their response to that is mutterings about a coup because they completely lack the self-awareness to consider their party has a bigger problem than Corbyn.

I hope there is a GE but I hope Labour takes the time to regroup and actually grasps the opportunity to input into leave discussions in the way their constituents want them to. but I'm not holding my breath on that

I think that the margin was too close for there to be a mandate - regardless of who won. If it had been the other way around, I and others would still call for a second referendum. There needed, still needs, to be a significant majority vote one way or another for there to be stability in this country - as it is we are divided down the middle and there is a real possibility that this will promote hard left and hard right groups. That's why I want a second referendum not because I'm stamping my feet and having a strop.

And not during the euros

why would people listen to the will of their representative instead of the representative listening to the will of the people

They shouldn't - but all too often that's exactly what's been allowed to happen

Which probably goes at least some way to explaining the vote for this kind of change ...

Oh whoops that was in answer to concert player, last post on 1st page!!!

Some months back, on This Week, Michael Portillo told Andrew Neil that the only sensible vote to achieve real reforms in the EU would be for people to vote Leave. The implication then being that we wouldn't actually have to leave.

I have wondered if Gove and Johnson have been playing that game?

I also wondered if that's possibly why Cameron resigned? Because the only people who could persuade the Leavers to accept a different scenario would have to be the leaders of the Leave campaign. I'm still not convinced Johnson is as Eurosceptic as he seemed. He dithered about Leave for a long time. I do think he had one eye on the leadership as well.

However, I think any hope of that happening has been scuppered by the EU message of no further concessions and pushing the UK to Leave fast (unless that's hard-ball strategy as well). Their worry presumably is if other shaky countries see the UK forcing concessions by a referendum then they'll do the same, destabilising the whole project. So, on balance, I can't see it happening.

I wonder if the EU would suggest new members should achieve a minimum results threshold for leaving the EU in future referenda?

As to the democracy question, the SNP line is if circumstances change significantly, and public opinion reflects a desire to change a position, then another referendum is legitimate. Maybe this Johnson's aim? In which case I don't blame Cameron for leaving him to the task of achieving it (or bear the brunt of wrath when things start to get tough). I don't think being Prime Minister of a UK he helped break-up was necessarily a part of his personal fantasy.

Oh, and I also don't think Johnson could achieve this unless Labour was able to properly reconnect with its voters.

Europe does not want Britain - if it did it would have let Cameron get a better deal. There would certainly be some people who voted leave who would have been happy with a reformed EU - but the EU was panning to become more centralist with a common army, common welfare benefits, less say for individual parliaments. It may now reign that back for fear of losing France though.

David Cameron let the voters down. He should never have headed up the Remain campaign. It gave the whole thing the feel of a general election, to the extent that some poor souls on the 'news' site we must not name are wondering why Nigel isn't walking into No10 to get on with sorting out the Brexit!

The ageism on this thread is disgusting. If 16 year olds had been allowed to vote Remain would have won. Considering it will affect them for 70+ years it seems cruel to deny them a say. Those aged 65+ have another 16 ish years to live (based on average life expectancy).

GreenishMe

I did not realise we had met.

Europe does not want Britain - if it did it would have let Cameron get a better deal.

Objectively we already had a decent deal! Polls have shown that Brits thought we had a much worse deal than we did. Perhaps along with pouring money into regenerating our towns, providing millions of jobs, protecting our areas of natural beauty from developers, funding important science research projects, etc, etc, the EU should have invested more money in their own PR?

I think that the margin was too close for there to be a mandate - regardless of who won. If it had been the other way around, I and others would still call for a second referendum.

Would you fuck.

Well maybe not you personally but I saw all the gloating when remain was set to win with 53%.

Certainly didn't see many remainders saying they wouldn't be happy with that result at all and we'd need a 2nd ref.....

A referendum is not legally binding- it's a poll. Any government could choose not to accept it.

There is a petition currently around for at least 75% turn out to make a referendum valid and a margin of well over the 2% we've had.

You'll find it on Twitter or google.

Brexiters are not extreme right wingers - an awful lot of them are labour supporters. I think labour has a lot of responsibility for the direction of the vote.

No the voting age should be 18. Children should not have the vote as they lack life experience. I find that suggesting that OAPs should not vote is disgusting. My father is 82 and has a degree and PhD. His mind is sharp and he has lot to contribute to the debate.

I am pleased that the chavs that middle class mumsnetters despise have come out in force and voted "leave". The labour have ignored their grass roots base.

It's amazing how little democracy means to people when they don't get their own way

Nice try trying to disenfranchise all of England and Wales save London. Btw if London had turned out properly remain may have won it. 28% of you lot couldn't be arsed to vote, remain should save their anger for them not the 17m leave voters.

Reform from within? Not that old chestnut again. We've been in this sorry club for 40+ years and have never managed it yet. We were one voice in 28 - we had no say, we were just a cash cow. We've voted to cut loose the dead weight of the EU, and there'll be others following us out before long. Bring it on

But we still have to trade and negotiate with the EU . It's far better to be round the table and have a say than have them tell us what they want- ie free movement of people v a trade deal.

It's an illusion to think there will be no penalty for not being in the EU.

Why anyone would want out of an organisation that has maintained peace in Europe for 40 years beggars belief. If you want to influence a school you join the PTA or become a governor. If you want to influence politics you become a councillor or an MP. If you want to influence how the EU treats you, you.....Remain. But no, people don't understand this....

Ffs NATO has kept the peace for 70 years not the EU. They made a fogs breakfast of the Balkans until NATO stepped in.

*dogs no idea what a fogs breakfast is!

Democracy gave us Cameron. Who gave us a non-binding consultation.

As to the PTA analogy there was a thread on here where someone thought the PTA was corrupt and for their own sanity and to not be accused of stealing the OP resigned from the PTA.

It's amazing how little democracy means to people when they don't get their own way
This

I don't think we have to accept it. A couple of % is not a mandate to crash the economy and fuel the rise of nationalism across Europe. We should find a legal way to step away from the edge.