to think the Remainers aren't going to take this lying down and we won't leave

[SybilEngineer]

A million plus more people voted leave than remain but still over 16 million voted in. And many of the people this will affect - the under 18s - didn't get a say.

The majority of our elected representatives want us to remain as does our capital city.

The EU wants us to remain and once the leaders have stopped throwing their toys around they will realise they need to reform the EU and make changes that will keep UK and all the other eurosceptic people in.

Today has been a body blow for us remainers but, we're shot of Cameron, so we can re-group and start the fight to remain in the EU but with changes that much of Europe wants.

why can't brexiters understand that remainers are decking terrified about the months to come

I do understand. I don't however accept the vile and nastiness being posted in here just because people had the audacity on their eyes to not vote remain.

In a rush but what that report says and what you're saying it says are a bit different, particularly on the issue of the economic context (recession vs upturn)- I don't know a single source that says this makes no difference!!

I know full well how bad things are... I'm from a working class background. I know that working conditions are worse and rights are being eroded. I know the middle class doesn't know, and doesn't care to find out. I just don't put that at the door of migrants but rather capital. Things like rights are a matter for policy and legislation, because capital is always going to take as much as it can. If these are not in place - and they most definitely ARE being eroded - then the blame isn't on migrants so much as on economic and regulative policy. We need a government with teeth on these issues, and we need labour to be organised so it has power to demand.

I'm sorry your DH works in construction. I have a horrible feeling they are going to be hit first and hardest.

Bill, those jobs in construction will get even fewer if we slide into a recession, and that seems a very strong possibility.

I'm more looking at it from a medium term perspective that things will improve after a dip. Because with the status quo I honestly could not see any way it was going to get anything other than much, much worse in terms of housing and wages.

If free movement doesn't go then it probably will continue in the same way. But at least there is the possibility of change now.

Yes, if we think we had a crap deal as members what makes us think we'll get a better deal as outsiders?

I'm absolutely not kidding myself that there won't be some difficult times ahead, tough decisions to make, hard words exchanged and maybe some feelings bruised. But the overall armageddon we were promised? Sorry, but no - I've got more confidence in the UK than that

Er, have you not been following the news this weekend? We're up shit creek without a paddle, no one has a clue what to do next, and no one is in charge.

I'm sorry your DH works in construction. I have a horrible feeling they are going to be hit first and hardest.

It'll probably be like 2008 then. When everybody disappeared apart from the people who had ties here cleared off. In many ways that was great for us for a while. The transients went and even the Poles who stayed were the ones who had kids in school here and their home here so also wanted to be able to afford a decent standard of living here. The people who would work 14 hour days for nothing to sleep on a timeshare mattress in a caravan cleared off. So the people who stayed overwhelmingly still worked. For a while he was even allowed to do things that were unheard of like going to hospital appointment or leaving early if a DC was sick and I wasn't available. That would be unthinkable now.

And things haven't improved wages wise much at all since the upturn, because it's meant the return of lots of transients prepared to accept shitty wages and conditions so there's been no need to pass on the extra money the employers are making. The only real change is that his working conditions have got a lot worse, with eroding of things like breaks, extra hours expected for no pay, or at the very best no higher overtime rate.

I work in the public sector and I do have a little chuckle every time my colleagues throw a hissy fit over every little % of pay rise they can wring out or the slightest change in conditions when they think the migration that does far worse to a lot of people is absolutely marvellous!

Er, have you not been following the news this weekend? We're up shit creek without a paddle, no one has a clue what to do next, and no one is in charge.

That's catastrophising. We've had one working day since the result. Nobody knows what's going to happen. A lot of the doom mongering is exactly the sort of misleading political capitalisation Remainers claim they are so cross about when other people do it.

noble you are hugely overreacting here.

The markets in Europe tumbled a lot more than ours. That tells you a lot about what they think about the EU

I have a huge amount of sympathy for your DH - I know what it's like. But I really think the onus on you is to prove definitively that the cause of the erosion of rights is migrancy and not poorly regulated capitalism. So much has changed in the last 10 years regarding all KINDS of labour contracts, both in and out of the construction sector - we are seeing a wholesale attack on conditions in sector after sector, and study after study suggests that it's technological innovation, diminution of trade union power and neoliberally-inclined policy that are the big drivers.

I think it was for Remain to prove that, actually.

They didn't. In fact, they could only scream "racist" at anyone affected by migration.

Lazy argument that.

Bill who exactly do you think is sorting out Brexit? Boris isn't, Gove isn't. The Tories are all looking for a new leader and the Labour Party has collapsed into farce. What exactly do you think is going on?

Yes Giraffe I've got the news on a constant feed

I'll even agree that at the moment there's not enough leadership (probably because the establishment are reeling with shock) and that there's a lot of uncertainty about. However this isn't about today, tomorrow or even next week ... it's about the entire future, and while I accept there may be difficulties ahead, I have a damned sight more confidence than some in the UK's resilience, creativity and downright ability to see this through if only people will pull together (and preferably resist talking everything down!!)

Puzzled there's not enough leadership on Brexit because Leave didn't have an exit plan. They have said that it was the government's responsibility to have an exit plan, despite being part of the government themselves. Daniel Hannan has just announced a month's holiday from Twitter, Boris is playing cricket and gathering support for his leadership campaign and Gove has been spotted out jogging.
Aside from that the Prime Minister has resigned and we have no opposition.

NO ONE is leading on this.

noblegiraffe
What exactly do you think is going on?

I know that this isn't aimed at me but its fairly easy to see what is happening

Cameron is throwing the same type of tantrum that he did when he called for the referendum.

And the labour party are busy stabbing each other in the back to get more power.

NO ONE is leading on this.

and they won't for another 3 months until cameron has gone because he is throwing a tantrum.

But giraffe, most of the "exit plan" comes into play when negotiations start after Section 50's issued. I'll agree there may not have been enough consideration given to what we might do, but a lot of that's probably because leaders expected us to do as we were told and never expected to be in this position - hence the panic and disarray we're seeing

Their reaction is disappointing - though perhaps not surprising - but eventually things will settle down, and to many of us the prize of finally being free of the corrupt, failing, largely moribund EU and being able to determine our own future is worth the early glitches

its fairly easy to see what is happening

Yep, a vote has given an outcome that no one expected and no one with any power wants. Cameron has washed his hands of the affair and those that campaigned for it are very firmly nowhere to be seen. No one is leading on it.

The leadership is a poisoned chalice. Whoever takes it is either going to have to do something that no politician wants to do which is press a button which will potentially break up the UK, or not press a button while trying to justify not pressing the button that the public voted for. In the meantime the race tensions are rising and the people who wanted the foreigners to leave are wondering what is taking so long, and the EU is saying 'so are you actually leaving or what?'

In three months I doubt we'll be any further along with this mess than we are now.

Oh, and you didn't mention George Osborne

Not that I care a damn about him, but just out of curiosity does anyone know where the hell he is??

I'm beginning to worry about him.

puzzled you need to read my thread
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2671142-The-Leave-Campaign-dont-have-a-post-Brexit-plan

There is no plan. Not even for post Article 50 talks. Dominic Cummings, the campaign manager specifically said that there shouldn't be a plan, as a plan might mean people wouldn't vote leave.
And if you read the vote leave campaign material, their suggestion was to have trade talks before invoking article 50, and possibly never invoking article 50 at all. Cummings also said in an interview last year that once these talks were complete, a second referendum could be set up on the terms of the exit, which could overturn a previous out vote if necessary. The fact that the EU are refusing talks before Article 50 is invoked means that's dead in the water.
THERE IS NO PLAN.

Invisible is a good move right now. I hope some of the invisible politicians are together behind closed doors hashing out what to do next.

The leadership is a poisoned chalice. Whoever takes it is either going to have to do something that no politician wants to do which is press a button which will potentially break up the UK, or not press a button while trying to justify not pressing the button that the public voted for

Ah yes, now that I definitely agree with. But the point is, you see, that I really don't care what the noses-in-the-trough politicians want to do - I care instead that the people have spoken and that, just for once, our so called leaders actually pay attention

Let me be quite honest, though, and say I'm very worried that their current disappearing act might be explained by them all working on schemes, in their own selfish interests, on how to get out of it ...

You can be sure that they aren't working on how best to Brexit. Boris has been drumming up support for his leadership campaign, as reported in the mail.

I think the only invisible politician actually working is Osborne who is said to be working closely with Mark Carney, but that's to prevent financial meltdown, not Brexit.

The fact that the EU are refusing talks before Article 50 is invoked means that's dead in the water

Sorry, cross posted with you before I read this

I know you won't agree, but if the EU's attitude avoids the chance of our wretched leaders lying yet again that "everything's going to be different this time if you'll just change your minds" then that works for me

I'm perfectly well aware that none of our feather bedded politicians want this, and I simply don't care; as I've said, the goal of being free of this thoroughly discredited organisation is of more value than the views of a bunch of here-today-gone-tomorrow opportunists

^I'm perfectly well aware that none of our feather bedded politicians want this, and I simply don't care'

The thing is, you need one of those politicians to push the button, and as it stands, they won't.

Article 50 certainly should not be triggered without significant negotiations being completed first. The time limit Article 50 imposes would result in an exceptionally weak negotiating position. Personally I think that we need to complete these negotiations to see what an exit looks like then vote to decide if we should enact article 50. That is afar better basis upon which to form an opinion.