to think the Remainers aren't going to take this lying down and we won't leave

[SybilEngineer]

A million plus more people voted leave than remain but still over 16 million voted in. And many of the people this will affect - the under 18s - didn't get a say.

The majority of our elected representatives want us to remain as does our capital city.

The EU wants us to remain and once the leaders have stopped throwing their toys around they will realise they need to reform the EU and make changes that will keep UK and all the other eurosceptic people in.

Today has been a body blow for us remainers but, we're shot of Cameron, so we can re-group and start the fight to remain in the EU but with changes that much of Europe wants.

roon

You're ranting hysterically and your post will probably be deleted.

True though, huh? Care to deny it?

What part of my post can you report?

And if it is deleted, I will repost with it the bad word.

It seems it's fine to level horrendous accusations of racism at every Leave voter. Stupidity. Uneducated.

And you don't like being called a snob.

Ok then!

We don't yet know that it won't stop EU immigration

Yes we do.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3660305/Brexit-MEP-rows-claims-quitting-EU-cut-immigration-furious-BBC-clash.html

You're ranting hysterically and your post will probably be deleted.

Why when there are so many posts along those lines have been said about those that voted Leave.

If the post gets deleted then so should half the threads.

I think there will effectively be a second referendum because it's far from being a sure thing that whoever comes next will trigger section whatsit. They're not obliged to and there may well be enough support to bring to power a politician who said they weren't going to go ahead with Brexit. Handled carefully between then and now (i.e. Brexit continuing to look like a dead horse with businesses leaving and Brexiters not getting what they thought they were voting for re: immigration and NHS funding) this could potentially be the end of Brexit.

In which case it was a colossal waste of time and has done a great deal of damage to our society. Any party that didn't go ahead with Brexit would be unpopular, but then no one who comes next is going to be much liked, let's face it.

Another referendum? Cause you didn't like the first? People didn't understand it?

I think people got it. They voted in the millions and millions. Huge turnout.

I trust the UK people. We are a sensible nation

I don't think Roon is being hysterical - simply reflecting many of the posts on the various MN threads regarding the outcome. I was ambivalent about the vote (couldn't vote anyways), but I am sickened by the reaction of people who are throwing a strop because the outcome was not in line with the way they wanted it to be, so are looking for any way to undermine a valid democratic outcome. That is not how democracy works, and to say that all retainers are small minded, ignorant, xenophobic, racist, stupid, old, out-of-touch is snobby and chillingly elitist. Those stupid uneducated folk - we should just take the vote away from them as they can't really make an intelligent choice. Horrible.

Democracy takes many constitutional forms.

Tell me about the original Athenian democracy.

Let's all remember that the petition for a second referendum was started by a leaver before the results were announced because he was worried that remain would win.

Being in a majority does not equate to being right. Imagine for a second (that's where the empathy comes in) that you think that brexit will be a car crash economic disaster. How would you react to the vote? I can perfectly well understand that brexit supporters are delighted, why can't brexiters understand that remainers are decking terrified about the months to come. To leave an autocorrect in place.

Oh, funnily enough, the original Athenian democracy was class-based and excluded women and foreigners.

For me, a second referendum would be justified because the electorate was deliberately misinformed. Campaigning on lies that have to be retracted the day after the vote is a perversion of democracy, not a democratic process. It may be convenient to call remainers bad losers for believing this but I prefer to think we have a higher ideal of what democracy is about.

However, I don't think a second referendum will be necessary to prevent Brexit. There never were many politicians willing to go ahead with it (since most of them listened to the overwhelming majority of experts in every field advising against) and since the vote, those who were keen seem to have disappeared. Not that the leaders of the Leave campaign were in power anyway, by and large.

For Brexit to occur, we need a group of politicians in power, ready to drive it forward. No such group is likely to appear because it's suicide both for them and very possibly the country. Therefore, possibly no Brexit.

gonetoseeamanaboutadog
For me, a second referendum would be justified because the electorate was deliberately misinformed. Campaigning on lies that have to be retracted the day after the vote is a perversion of democracy, not a democratic process.

This I agree with

It may be convenient to call remainers bad losers for believing this but I prefer to think we have a higher ideal of what democracy is about.

this ^ not so much.

I would also argue that Cameron didn't put in sufficient (standard) safeguards that are normal in this situation.

shove, GDP and average wages have long been established as an unsatisfactory measure for calculating the effect of migration on the resident population:

www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/257235/analysis-of-the-impacts.pdf

If you read that report I makes clear that it is an unsatisfactory measure because:

It is the immigrants themselves, rather than the extant residents, who are the main gainers.

It's also pretty well accepted that migration increases in average wages come from a positive effect on wages of the highest earners (who can pay themselves more when they pay their staff less), and that the effect on the wages of the very poorest is negative.

The effect on the poorest have been long term, and not corrected with economic up turns. Looking at figures in terms of average wages ignores other factors too, like deteriorating working conditions and terms.

It also ignores surrounding factors too. Saying 'Oh well there was a 0.1% increase in wages not only ignores the fact that those rises didn't go to the originally resident population, but also that knock on effects on things like the cost of housing effect the resident population making them poorer.

That leaves aside the fact that impact on wages in real terms are calculated in an appalling way for the least well off by assuming that they benefit from falls in things like the price of package holidays, brand new TVs and cars benefit the very poorest when they're largely irrelevant as they can't purchase them.

Anyway, it's all just more of the same. Remainers can wave studies until they're blue in the face. It makes absolutely no difference to people who work in industries such as construction (like my DH) who know that every time a new state ascends their pay packet will be lighter and they'll be working longer hours for less money. And who know that they kissed goodbye to the idea of anything like a permanent job, job security, sick pay, parental leave or staff training or development years ago when people starting queuing up to do their jobs for fuck all pay in rotten conditions.

They simply won't believe you.

bill great post. I think few Remainers get this.

Bill so you're saying that those people voted leave on the understanding that it would stop EU immigration.

How will they feel finding out they were lied to and it won't?

"a cohesive regional investment program from our own government"

On what planet is that even a remote possibility?

Bill so you're saying that those people voted leave on the understanding that it would stop EU immigration.

As I said earlier, given that it was very clear during the campaign that if the Norway or Switzerland option was taken free movement would continue I think it was also pretty clear that voting 'out' was a vote for the possibility of a reduction in EU migration rather than the 'remain' votes unequivocal stance it would not change or reduce in any way.

We don't know yet that it won't be reduced, as negotiations on terms haven't even started, let alone been confirmed. It's entirely possible that the negotiations may reach agreement on some form of control or reduction. The result of the referendum has now created a lot of pressure for this to be the case. We'll have to wait and see what happens, it's much to early to tell. And to insist there is no possibility is just as much of a lie.

the 'remain' votes unequivocal stance it would not change or reduce in any way.

That wasn't the remain stance - they were claiming they were better placed to make changes from within the EU. Whether or not they could is another matter. However the reality seems to be that in practical terms there is little difference - except that having left the EU has an incentive to show the UK who is in charge.

Bill, those jobs in construction will get even fewer if we slide into a recession, and that seems a very strong possibility.

Also, immigration won't be reduced, those promises were based on nothing.

I know about the wage pressure, it's the same in my industry, but I'd rather have some work than nothing at all.

We'll see.

That wasn't the remain stance - they were claiming they were better placed to make changes from within the EU

But we all knew that was bollocks because it is a non-negotiable for the EU for member states.

why can't brexiters understand that remainers are decking terrified about the months to come

Personally I do understand this - but I just don't share the pessimism and doom laden outlook of those who insist we're all going to hell on a handcart

On the subject of lies, let's not forget that only this week we were told a leave vote would trigger a dreadful emergency budget, the pound would be wiped out, business would be crucified, nobody would want to trade with us, the USA would desert us and much, much more - and instead the pound is recovering fast, the FTSE Index is better than before the vote, gormless Gideon's disappeared, the CBI are much more bullish about our resilience, other nations are approaching us about trade negotiations, the USA aren't going to turn heir backs on us after all (and there hasn't even been a plague of locusts )

I'm absolutely not kidding myself that there won't be some difficult times ahead, tough decisions to make, hard words exchanged and maybe some feelings bruised. But the overall armageddon we were promised? Sorry, but no - I've got more confidence in the UK than that

puzzled Let's see how this week goes before we write off those possibilities.

But we all knew that was bollocks because it is a non-negotiable for the EU for member states.

Whether you are in or out of the EU as Switzerland have found. The EU are not going to give a better deal to a non member.

Meanwhile, when we start negotiating with the rest of the world, their incentive will be to sell goods and services to the UK. There are plenty of other countries that really, really don't worry about workers rights.