to think the Remainers aren't going to take this lying down and we won't leave

[SybilEngineer]

A million plus more people voted leave than remain but still over 16 million voted in. And many of the people this will affect - the under 18s - didn't get a say.

The majority of our elected representatives want us to remain as does our capital city.

The EU wants us to remain and once the leaders have stopped throwing their toys around they will realise they need to reform the EU and make changes that will keep UK and all the other eurosceptic people in.

Today has been a body blow for us remainers but, we're shot of Cameron, so we can re-group and start the fight to remain in the EU but with changes that much of Europe wants.

Spot on, Noble.

Have you seen this? The Huff is claiming the petition was started by a Leave voter prior to the results as he thought they'd lose.

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/william-oliver-healey-referendum-petition_uk_576f8b28e4b0232d331e1b39

Also all signatures aren't exactly voters.

char and goneto

Do you feel the same way about the general elections? because its the same thing that politicians of all parties do.

Not really, a GE is every few years, it's not a huge yes or no decision.

Also, in a GE is not one or the other, there usually is a third option as a compromise.

Adding that a referendum is easier to manipulate, you get pushed into yes or no.

Exactly, noble. When I started this thread I was sleep deprived and aghast. I thought Angela Merkel would be pleading 'no, David darlink, please don't go. We need you and the lovely BMW driving Brits'.

Do you feel the same way about the general elections?

I think there should be an independent ombudsman before any election that investigates 'facts' that will be claimed, the key pledges to be made and evaluates whether there is a reasonable chance of them being fulfilled, and this information being made available to the public, with checks put on any outrageous 'pledges'.

This wasn't like a general election; the people making the 'pledges' have no obligation to fulfil them so their accountability must be verified in some other way.

bran

Based on the outrageous 'pledges' that were made by 'leave'; the electorate was deliberately misinformed.

Pledges are still being made.

IDS said to Andrew Marr this morning that the money we pay to the EU would be spent on the NHS ( after Cornwall and Wales get their cash).

I mean who is he to make that kind if pledge?

Well, the referendum was 'advisory' only so we now need to make sure MPs know they have to vote to block it, when it gets to parliament. ;o)

If everyone who voted Remain and everyone who voted Leave and now realises they were suckered, together totally blitz our MPs' inboxes with demands to block it, they will maybe realise that they can go ahead and allow us to Leave but in several years they will be unemployed.

If everyone who voted Remain and everyone who voted Leave and now realises they were suckered, together totally blitz our MPs' inboxes with demands to block it, they will maybe realise that they can go ahead and allow us to Leave but in several years they will be unemployed.

Or how about we go with what the majority voted.

No. The margin is too low and it was 'advisroy' - all it is, is opinion 'advising' MPs. In which case, they need to know people's new opinions in the light of the fallout. Either we have an intelligent, flexible system or we're stuck with this disaster. I know which I prefer.

An anthem for Brexiteers, with apologies to Elvis.
(To be sung to the Elvis version during which he changes the words and cracks up)

Are you lonesome tonight?
Is Boris a fright?
Are you sorry we drifted apart?
Does your memory stray to a brighter sunny day
When We kissed you and called you sweetheart?
Do the chairs in your parlor seem empty and bare?
Do you gaze at your bank balance and see nothing there?
Is your heart filled with pain, shall we vote once again?
Tell me dear, are you lonesome tonight?

If not you frigging should be. Scotland, Northern Ireland, Gibraltar, British nationals now on ruined UK sterling pensions (who pay UK PAYE tax on them) and yet for no reasonable reason were denied the vote. Do not like this one little bit, and NO! there is no reason why we should take it, especially as the many billions in funny money that Mark Carney says he will now throw at the banks "to save the pound", will be paid for by whom exactly? I foresee a real problem.

Civil war might be coming it a bit strong, but civil strife can also prove nasty.

The European news was full of what last night?

Do not like this one little bit, and NO! there is no reason why we should take it

In other words the only vote that matters is yours.

We aren't a dictatorship.

know people's new opinion

A few people's new opinions allegedly.

Many that voted leave did so because they don't feel they are being heard. It has gone on for decades.

You are proving them right.

But did they feel they 'weren't being heard' re Europe or re other issues and used this as a protest vote?

I'm not convinced the majority of Leavers understood what they were voting for, I'm not convinced they didn't know they were being 'lied' to by Johnson etc, and I'm not convinced that the protest vote was actually a protest about anything to do with the EU.

For all these reasons we should leave this abomination as 'advisory'. It is 'advice' from idiots. And the disenfranchised. And the fooled. And racists. Let's be honest.

I'm convinced that 80% of leavers don't have the first fucking clue about anything. I understand the anger, I feel it too!

We can't just ignore the result, though, because democracy makes no provision for intelligence. Votes are counted equally, regardless of whether someone is utterly stupid or stupendously bright. To depart from that is to introduce a level of discrimination that I do not believe those counselling this step really would support - because education and privilege are linked, we'd go back to a paternalist system where the rich ruled the poor.

I think attention would be better focused on considering how we can reach out to and inform those who are convinced that their 'common sense' dictated they should vote this way for the future. There are going to be some desperately difficult political decisions ahead and we need capacity in the general population to cope with complex data and argument that just isn't there right now. We need to look at political education in schools, at the way our mass media works - but also at the way the graduate middle classes are so divorced from any experience of poverty that they cannot even understand that world view any more.

Have you listened to yourself shove? You sound like some scary character from 1984 insisting that the rabble just need 'reeducating' until they're brainwashed to agree with their betters.

No, I'm arguing that we should have political education in schools precisely so people DON'T believe everything they read.

1984 is already here. That's why Leave won.

Noble "Juncker saying "get the fuck on with it" wasn't in the plan."

I thought it would be. Perhaps I'm in the wrong job

He was sick of us getting "special treatment" for ages wasn't he?

No. You are arguing that people should be educated until they agree with you. You're not actually arguing for education, you're arguing for brainwashing. You don't seem to be able to deal with the fact that people can be perfectly well educated and informed and they still will not agree with you.

I actually think people with attitudes like yours are one of the main reasons why a lot of people voted leave. You are a huge part of the perceived problem you have.

People have problems and concerns that are absolutely real. The response of people like you for the last 20 years has been to put your fingers in your ears and just tell them that they're wrong and put your fingers in your ears. To say 'No, you do not have problems, you just need to change the way you think'.

It's a very long winded and pompous way of saying 'I'm alright Jack so you just have to learn to suck it up'.

Excellent post Bill

You don't seem to be able to deal with the fact that people can be perfectly well educated and informed and they still will not agree with you

We could do with something similar to that plastered across every thread on this subject

Indeed. All these posters talking about City jobs and graduate opportunities disappearing.

People voted Brexit because they want their kids to access jobs in factors and on building sites. They're really not bothered about Jocasta's Erasmus opportunities.

I voted remain, by the way, but I can see both sides. Some Remain are being pretty patronising.