Anyone going to watch the Ruth Davidson v Boris Johnson debate this evening?

[squoosh]

I'd given up watching these debate programmes but may tune in for one last hurrah.

Rucker Ruth v Brawler Boris

Who's your money on?

Leave won that debate by a country mile. Remain came across very poorly!

Here's my 2penneth!

Sadiq Khan - needs some public speaking lessons - the more excited he gets the quicker his speech gets and it all just blurs. I couldn't hear some of what he was trying to say. His attacks on Boris seemed personal rather than professional

TUC lady - why did she keep slagging off the bankers but is supporting a campaign bankrolled by them? Her points were all directed to Tory policy in my opinion. Was her point that you can't trust the democratically elected government of this country if you are a worker, so we have to be part of the EU? (I'm sure the 50% youth unemployed in Southern Europe are heartened about that - you need a job first to have any rights to protect)

Ruth - barnstorming! Well done her. Felt she gave the best performance of the Remain team. Ruth vs Nicola in the Scottish Parliament would be worth watching - lucky Scots having 2 strong women leading their politics! (even if you disagree with them - great role models)

Andrea - was better on the ITV debate. But she is a safe pair of debating hands. Think she was blindsided by the funding question, but Gove said afterwards it had just come to light, they didn't have all the facts, and would give the money back if proved to be correct. She would appeal to my Mum.

Gisela - I really like her. She came across well. She is not flashy (although she is a mum and grandmum ), she brings an air of calm to the proceedings.

Boris - I think he had to work really hard tonight to control himself. I bet he wanted to fly at Sadiq Khan....! Great rabble rousing closing speech. He's an orator, and believe it or not people like him.

Verdict - If you support leave, then they won, if you support remain, they won

Leave just have to fire the troops into a rallying patriot chant and not a lot else. Which is scary in its own right.

I completely disagree. Leave had far better and stronger arguments. And they maintained their poise and didn't resort to name-calling. Sadiq Khan on the other hand simply shouted out lists of pre-pared soundbites and tried to slur the other side. Very poor form - he came across as a rabble rouser, not Leave.

The UKIP vote can't possibly increase to a stage where they'd win a General election.

The candidates they have to put up are ; with the greatest respect, a bunch of total drooling foaming nutters who hate everyone.

Nigel Farage has about 100 IQ points more than his nearest party candidate. He can't make a coherent planning meeting as they're all thick politically untutored.

If they were Jon Snow they'd know nothing.

I thought Boris seemed a bit doddery at times. Looking to his team mates a lot and generally not looking completely confident in himself.

If you support leave, then they won, if you support remain, they won

Yes I think that about sums it up. A bit of last minute sport to raise the blood pressure but I don't imagine it will have changed too many minds.

lucky Scots having 2 strong women leading their politics!

Poor old Kezia Dugdale would be shouting 'don't forget me!'.

This is the point though. What someone who is pro Leave sees as appealing and good, isn't necessarily what someone who is pro Remain will see as appealing and good.

Both sides will be looking to shore up votes now, and win a few undecided people over.

They aren't trying to convince someone who is pretty firmly for the other side. It just won't work. And they aren't trying to.

Its how much those messages resonate with those in the middle that really matters. I'm not sure either side went down well with the begrudged voters I know tbh.

Its definitely a case, of whoever you support won it really.

Yes shiny I think you have it about right there.

Good point Squoosh - 3 confident women in Scottish politics, I stand corrected.

Lauar Kuenssberg's analysis, from the BBC News w ebsite - "Remain got passionate, but Leave still have the emotional enthusiasm"

True maybe, but so did Yes in the Scottish Referendum. They didn't win.

Excuse typos, it's getting close to my bedtime. I'm sure you get the gist though.

Yes I don't think you can change someone's mind. They either get how EU is run or they choose to see it as a benign entity that they can change.

I guess ultimately a more positive approach would be to say both sides are optimists.

Remain that they can change EU from the inside.

Leave that we can't change EU at all but can effect change through self determination, and it appears to be 50/50?

I love Ruth Davidson - but she would never change my mind. I think people do their own research and then trust own instinct.

I am leave & thought leave came across better - so, yeah - it does seem like if you have already decided then your 'side' came over better.

Regardless, I think Ruth Davidson is great!
She's a real strong character and obviously good at thinking on her feet - I can imagine her and Nicola Sturgeon are really something to watch!

Isn't it marvellous how there are so many women at the forefront of the Referendum debates (on both sides)?

Any theories why? I think it's because both sides have realised that people want calm, reasoned discussion, and there are plenty of intelligent women across the political landscape who can deliver this. Shouty men are history. Hopefully this will feed into future political appointments and decisions too.

There does seem to be quite a few women up & coming now, it appears there's a new generation of female future cabinet members and potentially future PMs on all sides.

'Isn't it marvellous how there are so many women at the forefront of the Referendum debates (on both sides)?'

I think the reality is it is because these panel debates were the second rate debates and the spin doctors felt they had to put women n them t balance out the big beats who were in the solo audience dbates i.e. Cameron, Gove and Farage.

These second tier debates were a politically correct spin jb and of less importance, and it is interesting that Boris was relegated to this second tier rather than being in the big league.

Sadiq Khan was a great mistake, as a shouty attack dog eating his words as he got more excited and Frances O'Grady was useless as ever. Ruth Davidosn was the best on the Remain side but had only one real argument, that the Leave side had "no plan" which was obviously a pre-rehearsed focus group style point. It was not enough to hurt the Leave side.

Boris just had to stand there and take the blows like Ali on the ropes and the public ended up having more sympathy for him than for shouty Khan who was wound up to go.

That Ruth woman was really rude and I didn't like her constant interruptions. She is a bit of a bully. ./.

"Verdict - If you support leave, then they won, if you support remain, they won"

Totally agree. I'm remain, and I felt that the Leave's debate was largely sophistry and illusion. Vacuous and based on the same old lies questionable facts that have been rejected by so many experts from everything else I've read. For example, this very good analysis:

However, my winner was the leader of the Lib Dems:

All the experts agree we'd be better off remaining in the EU.
Gove: Who wants to listen to experts anyway
Lib Dem: That's why our education system is in such a mess!

And him on migration:

news.liverpool.ac.uk/2016/06/20/eu-law-expert-responds-industrial-dishonesty-video-goes-viral/

I thoughtAndrea Leadsom was more impressive on the ITV debate when leave fielded the same team; she was calmer than Boris and more eloquent than Gisela(am I the only one who has always thought that name was pronounced Jizella rather than Geezla?)last time. This time she over-employed the stuck record technique "take back control, vote leave on the 23rd"

I expect both sides had been extensively coached in which sound-bites to drop in, to get a resultant cheer from their side which would then be repeated on the news for many millions more to see.

(I know how to pronounce Gisela but only because she's one of my local MPs. Giselle has soft G but that's French I think?)

Wtf?

Geezla?

All the experts agree we'd be better off remaining in the EU.

There are no experts, they are all giving their opinion, nothing more nothing less. These 'experts' are making it up as they go along.

What concerns me is these people only speak about what is happening in the uk. Take a little peak across the rest of the Eu and look at what's happening there - look at the economies of Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece etc. Etc. They are all broke and going under quicker than a sinking titanic - if we remain in the eu who is going to have to pay to bail these people out the shit? Yep us mugs... Time to get out of this sinking boat and save our own skin.

This worries me: "I started out intending to vote 'Remain' - I am cautious by nature; but I am now voting Leave. Remain is all about negativity and fear around leaving, and not positive reasons for remaining."

So instead of thinking about what's best for the future peace and security of the country, you're basing your vote on the quality of a hastily cobbled-together, randomly funded, cross-party campaign strategy? That's an OK strategy to use in a general election, but this goes somewhat beyond that.

And I mean, maybe I'm a negative person by nature, but I tend to yell at the kids, "Don't run into the road!" rather than "Hey, wouldn't it be great to stay on the pavement?"

Maybe Remain should have read How To Talk So Kids Will Listen* before starting their campaign, it's very big on telling you that saying "For God's sake don't do X!" makes people think, "Hmmm, X, eh? Sounds like fun"

*this is not meant to be patronising before anyone jumps on me, they just lay out the psychology.