#2 Anyone feeling worried now?

[nearlyhellokitty]

Link to the previous thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2656228-Anyone-else-really-worried-now

Seems like it was a useful threat started by MrsBlackthorn and it hit the big 1000 so I took the liberty to restart it!

Original post:
My work has started quietly drawing up contingency plans for if Brexit happens. Same at DH's work. Could mean lots of jobs moving to Germany and Ireland at both our firms. We're already seeing far fewer people investing or spending money.

I'm bloody terrified. Could lose my job. House could end up in negative equity. And for what?

I don't even think it's "project fear" from the government anymore... News today showed investors are taking money out of the UK faster than anytime since the crash. People with "skin in the game" voting with their money.

I understand that for lots of people the EU referendum isn't about money. however, because of a lot of it leaving, stopping coming in, or just simply being worth less... Well that leaves us screwed for a very long time. Fewer jobs. Less tax money coming in - so less money for the NHS and so on. So even if we 'take back control', of what exactly. what will we be 'in control' of?

I'm really worried about "Leave" happening and me and my family being utterly f*ed in a few months time as a result. Has the country lost its mind?

Anyone else worried about where this leaves us?

^^ what ohdogoaway said. There seems to be a bit of confusion regarding the fact that NHS, education, lack of housebuilding starts, financial system misgovernance leading to massive taxpayer bailouts and consequential austerity programme, immigration numbers encouraged through being the only country granting work rights for the first 7 years, benefits system structured to encourage low wages, btl taxation policy, and most certainly the evils of were apparently all under the sole, direct control of the EU . Well unfortunately not. It was all down to the glorious sovereign UK democratic system. Enjoy.

I am not worried at all, I am excited we are going to get our democracy back.

Back to women and part time workers being paid less, no protection from sexual harassment at work - joy.

We can make our own laws, control UK borders, control our fishing waters, save billions in EU fees we can spend on the UK & we will finally have accountable leaders to the British people rather than EU leaders who don't care about UK interests & Brits can't vote out

If the government of the day want to make certain laws, so again no need for equality legislation because people should be glad they have a job, or at least 30 hours working at Argos and receiving only benefits because that is fine and dandy with this government and no appeal to European court of human rights.

I don't think many people in the current cabinet care much about British people, personally I trust the EU far more than Cameron.

Oh and we can start pumping shit directly in to the sea again.

YY sash. I fear people are going to find out the meaning of the old adage "You don't know what you've got till it's gone" soon.

dog it's been a huge social experiment, hasn't it?

But if you are the one whose school has 40 kids per class, without the infrastructure to support, and at least 10 of those kids - lovely lovely kids - are offspring of Eastern European migrants, and you can't even register at the local GP (our new neighbour) and your child nearly died because the local hospital can't cope, you think this is one massive social experiment that has to stop.

We do need immigration but not at the rate of 3 million every decade which is current levels. 3 million - I don't care about race - I care about numbers. We can still accept immigrants but choose who we need. Healthcare workers? Yes please. EU migrant beggars? (as there is a proliferation here) - no thanks.

Why should an EU national have priority to come here over an Indian national? Or a South American?

Rooner. Those are all examples of poor public spending. Why will a Gove/Johnson/Farage government increase spending on schools/hospitals? Even if they wanted to, the collapse in tax revenues will mean more cuts are inevitable. No reputable economic forecast predicts the economy will be bigger in even 30 years with Brexit than in being part of the largest trading bloc in the world.

Rooner - I do understand - really I do. But my point is that these genuine concerns have opened the door to something more ugly. I also am not convinced that brexit will help massively with the pressure on our social services - after all - does brexit mean that these people will all be deported ? Is that what brexit is promising ? If yes, then ok, maybe one could make peace with that . But it's not. And I find the idea that we are implicit in a brain drain from poorer countries disturbing- will that help in the long term? If we leave those countries without their doctors and scientists and engineers, they will never have a hope of developing economies that make their citizens want to stay there instead of taking their chances as economic migrants . It's complicated and a moral quagmire. And on the other side, remain can't tell me how they will control immigration numbers. Is there a chance of renegotiating ? Immigration needs to be accompanied by increased investment in our basic services. Which no government has done. I'm not sure shitting on the economy is going to help.

Why should an EU national have priority to come here over an Indian national? Or a South American?

Because Britain gets a hugely advantageous economic deal from the EU that it doesn't get from these countries. Also because it's a two-way street and Brits have priority over Indian and South American people in the rest of the EU.

If you get down to it, yes, there is also an element of political union here - it's the same logic that gives a Scot priority to work in England over an Indian national.

How much migration is needed to sustain the aging population in this country?

I would quite like to know this too, surely demographers have an answer? How many tax-payers do we need to add every year, to pay for the older population's pensions and healthcare?

Why should an EU national have priority over Indian or Pakistan or Bangladesh or South America? Culturally hundreds of years of European history means that our cultures are more similar. Freedom of movement works both ways and most Brits have more interest in moving to France, Spain, Italy than India and Pakistan.

The markets are seriously spooked now.

mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN0Z10GK

All that stuff about the currency being volatile and interest rates possibly having to go up really isn't just scaremongering.

I keep thinking.. so when the economy tanks after Brexit, services worsen..who's going to get the blame? Can't blame the EU anymore.. ?

I would quite like to know this too, surely demographers have an answer? How many tax-payers do we need to add every year, to pay for the older population's pensions and healthcare?'

That would depend on how many ex-pat pensioners are forced to return here due to economic reasons.

The worse our economy gets, I guess that means the more tax payers we'll need. Not forgetting the likihood taxes going up and consequently more of our higher rate tax payers including doctors leaving the country as part of that exodus.

I think the answer you are looking for is 'how long is a piece of string'.

I'm worried about the standard of education in this country and the lack of any ability to have a sensible discussion.

The remain campaign are stoking up fear because it's easier to do that than address the arguments. There will be a short term shock if we exit but my experience of economists is that most are, as one said elsewhere on mumsnet, paid to get it wrong. The long term effects are considerably more debatable. For a more balanced approach than most try woodfordfunds.com/economic-impact-brexit-report/

Global warming will lead to large population movements. I seriously doubt the ability to control those either in or out of the EU.

I can understand why immigrants feel threatened. However the "want to cut immigration" argument is not about those who are here now, but about restrictions in future. The more you integrate into your community, the less likely you are to get go back to your own country comments. I've heard this said to a French woman who constantly extolled the virtues of France, that puts anyone off.

I dislike most of the politicians associated with the leave campaign but the relentless misinformation from project fear is just as bad.

Sorry already - that is patently not true- I am extremely well integrated and I have had those comments - more frequently as it happens. So are many of my friends and family . Unfortunately I cannot " integrate" the colour of my skin. How do you define well integrated? At risk of repetition I DO have concerns myself about the infrastructure in place to support such large influxes of people . I agree numbers have to come down. I am just not convinced that Brexit will do this. I think things will be bad, pressures will increase on local councils due to less funding. Surely there is some way to address immigration without throwing the baby out with the bath water

I've copied this post doing the rounds on FB....

A good friend of mine came up with a great idea. If you don't have the time/inclination to find out all the facts about the EU referendum (I don't blame you) and are possibly unsure which way to vote, perhaps knowing how other notable people are thinking could help out.

Here are a few that strongly believe the UK should remain a member of the EU:

• Governor of the Bank of England
• International Monetary Fund
• Institute for Fiscal Studies
• Confederation of British Industry
• Leaders/heads of state of every single other member of the EU
• President of the United States of America
• Eight former US Treasury Secretaries
• President of China
• Prime Minister of India
• Prime Minister of Canada
• Prime Minister of Australia
• Prime Minister of Japan
• Prime Minister of New Zealand
• The chief executives of most of the top 100 companies in the UK including Marks and Spencer, BT, Asda, Vodafone, Virgin, IBM, BMW etc.
• Kofi Annan, the former Secretary General of the United Nations
• All living former Prime Ministers of the UK (from both parties)
• Virtually all reputable and recognised economists
• The Prime Minister of the UK
• The leader of the Labour Party
• The Leader of the Liberal Democrats
• The Leader of the Green Party
• The Leader of the Scottish National Party
• The leader of Plaid Cymru
• Leader of Sinn Fein
• Martin Lewis, that money saving dude off the telly
• The Secretary General of the TUC
• Unison
• National Union of Students
• National Union of Farmers
• Stephen Hawking
• Chief Executive of the NHS
• 300 of the most prominent international historians
• Director of Europol
• David Anderson QC, Independent Reviewer of Terrorism Legislation
• Former Directors of GCHQ
• Secretary General of Nato
• Church of England
• Church in Scotland
• Church in Wales
• Friends of the Earth
• Greenpeace
• Director General of the World Trade Organisation
• WWF
• World Bank
• OECD

Here are pretty much the only notable people who think we should leave the EU:

• Boris Johnson, who probably doesn’t really care either way, but knows he’ll become Prime Minister if the country votes to leave
• A former Secretary of State for Work and Pensions who carried out a brutal regime of cuts to benefits and essential support for the poorest in society as well as the disabled and sick
• That idiot that was Education Secretary and every single teacher in the country hated with a furious passion for the damage he was doing to the education system
• Leader of UKIP
• BNP
• Britain First
• Donald Trump
• Keith Chegwin
• David Icke

So, as I said, if you can’t be bothered to look into the real facts and implications of all this in/out stuff, just pick the list that you most trust and vote that way. It really couldn’t be more simple.

And if you are unsure about leaving, don't.

Please repost this list, if you think it might help.

That report was written in February already and it doesn't take into account more recent developments - as well as taking a particularly rosy view on trade (e.g. the WTO director general has a very different view). Plus I find it weird that you take this view on this particular report because capital economics were definitely commissioned aka paid to write it.

capital economics is by the way well known as a eurosceptic firm - so I wouldn't say they were particularly "balanced".

I keep thinking.. so when the economy tanks after Brexit, services worsen..who's going to get the blame? Can't blame the EU anymore.. ?

You can still blame immigrants.

All their fault.

Its massively politically destabilising, either way now anyway. Even if we remain there is a danger that the uncertainty will tip us into recession anyway now. The implications of that are not pretty.

There are now 57 Tories openly saying that tax hikes and spending cuts in the event of brexit will make Osbourne's position untenable.

What happens in the event of a close Remain vote is less clear but now becoming also increasingly worrying. 57 Tories is enough to trigger a vote of no confidence in the government. There is talk of this, if Cameron win a close referendum. They want to threaten him to force him to resign. If he doesn't resign and they go for the vote of no confidence and Cameron looses that, its General Election time. There are some in the Conservative party who now actively want this; they think they can win a BIGGER mandate to government.

Its all crackers.

We have a rollercoaster of ANOTHER WEEK to go. This was not beyond the realms of prediction, but arrogantly Cameron thought he would win easily.

Stupid man.

ohdogoaway - nothing you can do about the colour of your skin and yes, people who dont know you may shout abuse at you for that. But if you have integrated into your community then I would expect some of that community to speak out against it.

I think the answer you are looking for is 'how long is a piece of string'.

fair enough. I guess I just don't understand how this is not at least part of a reasonable conversation on immigration.

who's going to get the blame? Can't blame the EU anymore..

Oh, they probably can... it will take years to disentangle the UK from the EU, it will take years to introduce any immigration restrictions (if that ever happens), and the current immigrants will most likely stay. That's a lot of Europeans available to blame for everything.

FarAwayHills the trouble with that list, is it plays into the whole idea of voting to leave sticking it to the establishment.

For many that is actually a reason to vote FOR leave. Not against it.

They believe they have nothing to loose.

Its not about policy but about an ideal, which I don't think a lot of people understand and comprehend. The trouble with that, is they vastly underestimated how much support it would get due to their lack of understanding.

Plus Neil Woodford who commissioned the report has been on record as stating that his investment portfolio doesn't really deal with the UK economy, more global. So even if here was an economic crash it wouldn't affect him.

'And as for claig- sorry anyone for trump I cannot engage with on a serious level.'

Oh dear. I am sure you think you are very worthy and that millions of people who support Trump and who have made him the Republican nominee are not worth enagaging with and yet you say things like this of other people

"How do you argue with people this small minded who are now emboldened by a legitimate debate on immigration."

I was trying to allay your worries over the future by reminding you that Priti Patel is on the Leave side and the Leave side want to reduce immigration numbers which will make things better for existing immigrants as immigration no longer remains such an issue.

I will engage with you, not for you sake as I don't expect you to read what I say, but for anyone else who is more open minded.

'Why can't our jobless be better trained to fill some of these positions. I don't think the EU is responsible for our governments - both Labour and Tory , not addressing these issues . Why would this change with a brexit ? Underfunding the education system and the NHs are not EU issues - it's GOVERNMENT POLICY. Governments WE vote in. Where is OUR responsibility in all this? '

Because our government policy is to allow open door immigration form the EU which means that employers have access to lots of cheap labour and therefore can keep wages down and don't need to invest in training staff for the longterm. It will change because as the labour pool declines, employers will need to treat staff better, increase wages and implement training programmes to skill and retain staff. "OUR responsibility" in this is to vote for a government that can enable this and that is one that gets us out of the opne door immigration EU so that our unemployed face less competition for employment.

it does not matter if someone is commissioned to write a report unless they are commissioned to write one with a particular viewpoint. Are you actually suggesting that?

A more recent criticism of the project fear exaggeration www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2016/05/23/eu-exit-warnings-are-flawed/

Of course the Brexit campaigners are also exaggerating but this is a one sided thread, I dont need to point that out.

alreadytaken seems to me that you're minimising here