#2 Anyone feeling worried now?

[nearlyhellokitty]

Link to the previous thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2656228-Anyone-else-really-worried-now

Seems like it was a useful threat started by MrsBlackthorn and it hit the big 1000 so I took the liberty to restart it!

Original post:
My work has started quietly drawing up contingency plans for if Brexit happens. Same at DH's work. Could mean lots of jobs moving to Germany and Ireland at both our firms. We're already seeing far fewer people investing or spending money.

I'm bloody terrified. Could lose my job. House could end up in negative equity. And for what?

I don't even think it's "project fear" from the government anymore... News today showed investors are taking money out of the UK faster than anytime since the crash. People with "skin in the game" voting with their money.

I understand that for lots of people the EU referendum isn't about money. however, because of a lot of it leaving, stopping coming in, or just simply being worth less... Well that leaves us screwed for a very long time. Fewer jobs. Less tax money coming in - so less money for the NHS and so on. So even if we 'take back control', of what exactly. what will we be 'in control' of?

I'm really worried about "Leave" happening and me and my family being utterly f*ed in a few months time as a result. Has the country lost its mind?

Anyone else worried about where this leaves us?

well there you go Springing - its a national politics choice. Invalidates what you said about the Lords/ abolishing the EU

Anyone know whats on the agenda today. What delights can we look forward to today.

I feel it will be a little bit of an anti-climax after yesterdays entertainment distracting from the horror of the rest of campaigning.

When is Junkers getting involved?

Don't know, Honey. Was the rumour he'll step in with a week to go if Cameron was struggling?

I notice today is the Bank of England monthly meeting.
Doubt that one will go without a comment.

Question time later.

Anything else? What are labour up to today? Been quite for a couple of days. And I've not seen Boris either.

Boris has been weirdly quiet during this campaign overall. Maybe it's trying to not alienate too many people, so he can be a consensus choice for PM.

I think Theresa May and Gordon Brown are supposed to speak today

I hope Brown comes up with something better that "Brexit will spell the end of British cities", because at this point no one is listening anymore to the predictions of apocalypse.

Yes, going by those rumours I was wondering if he'd go ahead today/tomorrow.

I can't see if being a helpful move for either campaign though. Not at this stage. In fact I'm not sure what would be helpful at this stage

Well some truths would be helpful.

And some more official plans of policy for their intentions going forward either way from our key political parties to help voters decide, would be nice.

Something tells me I'm better off requesting the moon on a stick though

In fact I'm not sure what would be helpful at this stage

I don't think there's going to be one big game-changer. The EU is not in a position to make a last-minute bribe/peace offering (and don't think they'd want to either). And the rhetoric by British politicians is just noise now.

But it would help Remain if the last week is generally focused on economics instead of immigration, and I think the IMF is due to publish a big report soon?

Two things I discovered today make me less worried

1. Switzerland has just formally withdrawn its application to join the EU. That's sending us a BIG message - Leave. Iceland withdrew their application to join a while ago.

2. poll of Nursing Times readers has backed LEAVE. They obviously understand the dangers to the NH of opening it up to be sued by big American corporations.

About Switzerland, the formal application was a legal anomaly remaining from its application to the EEA in 1992, before it was vetoed by a referendum. Switzerland has never been treated as, and has never seen itself as, an applicant to the EU.

So it's a meaningless gesture, but you're right that it's a hostile gesture in spirit. The Swiss are pretty annoyed at the EU's intransigence about free movement.

Switzerland formally withdrawing its application to the EU is hardly a reason to vote leave - it applied for EU membership in 1992 and suspended their negotiations almost immediately after a referendum when they decided to not join the European Economic Area. The formal process to withdraw was described yesterday - 'Filippo Lombardi, from the Christian Democratic People’s Party, said that it was “not very clever to discuss it once again,” calling the debate about Switzerland’s accession at this stage “a bit ridiculous,” Neue Zürcher Zeitung reported.

Worth noting that Switzerland shares free trade with the union and free movement of people as part of the Schengen zone. Over the years Switzerland has negotiated over 120 bilateral agreements with the EU - a unique arrangement but considered flawed and unlikely to be accepted again by the EU. In addition, the Swiss do not have access to the EU financial services market and so face licensing and other barriers to cross-border trading. To get round this some Swiss bank have set up UK subsidiaries from which they run their provision of financial services to other EU countries. So like many other financial institutions (other than, apparently HSBC - who in the blink of an eye could return its head office to Hong Kong), they will probably move their operations to another EU city - like Dublin (close by, English speaking, lower rents, young workforce, member of EU thus allowing 'passporting' around the EU).

1. Switzerland has just formally withdrawn its application to join the EU. That's sending us a BIG message - Leave. Iceland withdrew their application to join a while ago.

No. Switzerland hasn't got any of the same issues as the UK. They are not upsetting anyone by doing this, and are still stuck with free movement of people and EU regulations they have no influence over.

As for Iceland. Well I suggest you look that one up. Iceland simply are not in a financial position to join, and won't be for decades. It was pointless to pursue as much as anything. They were forced to try and devalue their country and attract in the US. This has been at much cost to them. Their only real assets are fish and tourism. They are now in the midst of a tourism boom which is destroying the country. Not only is tourism blighting the beauty and wilderness of the country, but building in Reykjavik has been dominated by tourism. This means hotels have sprung up every where and is totally changing the city. The waterfront is unrecognisable from 10 years ago. The demand and profits from holiday lets has pushed the price of housing up, and there are fewer homes being built. On top of this the way their mortgages work, there are people in the situation where even though they are meeting or even exceeding their regular payments the amount of money they owe is actually GOING UP rather than them clawing back equity value in the property. Can you imagine that. Their infrastructure is crumbling. Public hospitals are in disarray (there was one case of patients being cared for in an underground garage which if I could remember the details I'd link to the story). You either go private or you are pretty much fucked.

On the surface Iceland LOOKS like its doing well. The reality for many average Icelanders is very very different. If you think the youth of the UK have few prospects then take a look at Iceland. Many who can, try and get out as a result.

They even have very few cash machines - in order to stop people taking too much money out - which tells a few stories. Its the only place in the world I've been where you can pay for a piss by card as a result.

I love the country with a passion. I wouldn't look to it as a place to follow in the footsteps of, in any way shape or form. Yes, its liberal, yes women's rights are good. But there are lots of other BIG downsides if you are Icelandic and got stiffed in the economic crisis there.

I do not see its withdrawal from EU membership as a good thing. More one forced out of necessity due to adverse conditions and a step backward in its ambitions.

aldasigmunds.com/on-the-exodus-from-iceland/

Any of this sound familiar? (Remember the population is only around 327,000 to begin with when looking at the migration figures as they sound tiny).

aldasigmunds.com/the-icelandic-prime-minister-and-his-wifes-offshore-activities/

I like the sound of this level of corruption. And they are still in politics not jail. The PM resigned. But is still in the party and still working. Others also implicated haven't.

Incidentally. The Reykjavik Grapevine is the country's English language media outlet.

Their headline today?

grapevine.is/news/2016/06/12/iceland-needs-to-catch-up-in-human-rights/

Hmm.

I also heard last week that a holiday apartment owner sacked 8 staff for complaining that they had no toilets.

icelandreview.com/news/2016/06/06/workers-fired-after-complaining

I'm gutted. I stayed there earlier this year.

Yeah. I want to be like Iceland.

Slavery in Iceland.
grapevine.is/news/2016/05/31/400-slaves-working-in-iceland/

Political Dissatisfaction.
grapevine.is/news/2016/06/01/7-out-of-10-want-elections-this-autumn/

Yep. Life's all shiny and rosy in Iceland.

Anyone know whats on the agenda today. What delights can we look forward to today

The pontificating tax doging Bob Geldof? On QT.....

No. Switzerland hasn't got any of the same issues as the UK. They are not upsetting anyone by doing this, and are still stuck with free movement of people and EU regulations they have no influence over

thats right and that's why they are having massive internal issues whilst fighting the EU on immigration they don't want it anymore! And - they cant change it. The EU wont listen to them.

www.thelocal.ch/20150401/immigration-remains-top-issue-of-swiss-voters

"The poll conducted last month found that 49 percent of voters rank immigration, integration and the issue of refugees seeking asylum in the country as the nation’s biggest problems.

www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/10/swiss-vote-elections-dominated-immigration-issue-151018071515916.html

Voting is under way in Switzerland's parliamentary elections with surveys indicating a tilt to the right as voters see immigration as their biggest concern.

The surveys suggest Switzerland's main party, the populist right-wing anti-immigration Swiss People's Party (SVP), will make minor gains.

While Switzerland has not become a major destination for the thousands of refugees and migrants entering Europe each day, there has been a growing sense of unease about rising immigration in recent years.

I do wonder at what point people who are not affected by immigration, start to listen and understand peoples concerns with immigration.

They obviously understand the dangers to the NH of opening it up to be sued by big American corporations

I guess they don't read UKIP manifesto or to what Gove etc want the NHS to be lol

Springing you keep using TTIP threat when Out/tories are would sign up to a similar style trade deal you cant have it both ways.

SoThisIsSummer, what the Swiss example shows is that they would ideally want less immigration, but that they don't think that jeopardising their agreements with the EU is worth it.

now that the choice is clearly either EU agreements with EU immigration, or no EU agreements and no EU immigration (which was not made clear before the referendum), support for limiting EU immigration has dropped like a stone, it's only at around 38% in polls right now.

There is a half way though. We could have trade agreements and some migration. A cap on numbers.

After all, it's the unlimited migration that is the problem.

Why is the EU so obsessed with everyone moving around to the limited countries with decent economies? Why can't everyone stay put and build their own economies? I don't see many UK folk migrating to Greece

'Why is the EU so obsessed with everyone moving around to the limited countries with decent economies? '

Because they want to force the end of the nation state and create a European superstate with European citizens living anywhere within that state.

Mayors, devolution etc are all small steps in creating the Europe of regions which devolves power from the nation state and makes its political class less important

Scottish devolution was part of the same process, kicked off by our Labour Party, Blair and the team, big fans of the EU (as of course are Cameron and the modernisers).

"The end of the European nation-state?

e live in anti-establishmentarian times. The biggest political sensations in the U.S. are Donald Trump and Bernie Sanders. In the U.K., it's the far-left Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn. France's Marine Le Pen is riding high.

But while Trump campaigns as a Republican to "Make America Great Again!", in Europe this anti-establishmentarian fervor also takes the shape of independence movements in regional blocs.
...
Since the end of World War II, European elites have held to the belief that the source of Europe's tendency for total war was nationalism, and that the way to abolish nationalism in Europe was to create a European super-state, a "United States of Europe." The European Union is the brainchild of this decades-long project, a project that has advanced, by and large, at the behest of European elites against nations and, sometimes, their democratically-elected leaders (whether Alexis Tsipras today or Charles de Gaulle in the 1960s).

One component of this project has been to — under the logic of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" — use European monies and rhetorical talk of diversity to strengthen regional identities within its nation-states. The idea is that if I'm a French Basque and I feel strongly about my Basque identity and my European identity, my French identity will be, as it were, squeezed out. And if competencies are simultaneously devolved down from the nation-state to regions, and up to the EU, nation-states will be hollowed out."

theweek.com/articles/580163/end-european-nationstate

That has been the plan of the bought and paid for servant class from Oxbridge and the College of Europe etc in the think tanks across Europe who serve the European elite.
...
What this should be, though, is a lesson to Europe's elites. Facts are stubborn, and nationhood is one of those facts of history that keep reasserting themselves. When it looked like Scotland might actually vote for independence, Britain's elites were struck witless with fear over something which they themselves invited through decades of neglect for their own nationhood.

Europe's elites have unleashed forces that it's clear they can't control to an outcome no one will predict. And that's hardly good news."

theweek.com/articles/580163/end-european-nationstate

Little by little, the elites want their servaant class of politicians to devolve power in order to break the nation state, but they have met anti-establishment resistance from the people.

The flotilla of fishermen on the Thames yesterday was a shining example of that resistance, which was met by an Establishment servant, Sir Bog Dandruff, in a much larger Establishment paid for boat with a sound system that could cut across the waves to mock the people.

They think they have it in the bag, they think Sir Blob F-off will see us off.

Little by little, the elites want their servaant class of politicians to devolve power in order to break the nation state, but they have met anti-establishment resistance from the people.

So Gove and Bojo are anti-establishment?

It may be some time before i stop laughing before I can get up off the floor.

'So Gove and Bojo are anti-establishment?'

Gove is, he is one of us who worked his way up after being adopted by a great family in Scotland who lost their business due to the EU. Gove is super intelligent and went to Oxford and became a great success due to his talent. He worked for what he has and deserves everything he got. He has not forgotten us and is now fighting for us, having abandned his chums in the Establishment.

Boris is Establishment. he had a silver spoon, he is Bullingdon and is known to cry "Buller, Buller, Buller" whenever meeting another member of that club. He has abandoned his chums because he has seen which way the wind is blowing and wants to gain power in the people's revolution against the elites. He is oe of them pretending to be with us, but he will do whatever we want as long as he can be in nominal charge. He has jumped ship, abandoned Sir Blob Dandruff and the other servants, in order to try and lead the people.

Claig - one of the flagships of the flotilla was owned by a Sunday times rich list guy and had been involved previously I massive fraud. Shining example

Gove is, he is one of us who worked his way up after being adopted by a great family in Scotland who lost their business due to the EU.

Gove's dad was in the news yesterday saying he sold his business several years before CFP came into effect and it had nothing to do with the EU - Gove's spun this little sob story for his own ends.