#2 Anyone feeling worried now?

[nearlyhellokitty]

Link to the previous thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2656228-Anyone-else-really-worried-now

Seems like it was a useful threat started by MrsBlackthorn and it hit the big 1000 so I took the liberty to restart it!

Original post:
My work has started quietly drawing up contingency plans for if Brexit happens. Same at DH's work. Could mean lots of jobs moving to Germany and Ireland at both our firms. We're already seeing far fewer people investing or spending money.

I'm bloody terrified. Could lose my job. House could end up in negative equity. And for what?

I don't even think it's "project fear" from the government anymore... News today showed investors are taking money out of the UK faster than anytime since the crash. People with "skin in the game" voting with their money.

I understand that for lots of people the EU referendum isn't about money. however, because of a lot of it leaving, stopping coming in, or just simply being worth less... Well that leaves us screwed for a very long time. Fewer jobs. Less tax money coming in - so less money for the NHS and so on. So even if we 'take back control', of what exactly. what will we be 'in control' of?

I'm really worried about "Leave" happening and me and my family being utterly f*ed in a few months time as a result. Has the country lost its mind?

Anyone else worried about where this leaves us?

shiny remain is not a leap into the dark on the scale that leave is. i saw an article today from the Washington Post which calls leaving 'flirting with economic insanity' t.co/ayso5l9lNg The idea that the risks are comparable are massive misdirection from leave. should it all go tits up the UK can still invoke Article 50.
Meanwhile given world events being isolated is not a great idea. Russia springs to mind. Meanwhile China for example loves to negotiate with smaller markets because they just impose their terms.
On the democracy question - see this reasoned article barristerblogger.com/2016/06/13/must-remain-eu-peace-prosperity/

I keep hearing this "other countries want to leave" - which countries? I can't see any of the big players - Germany, France, Belguim, Netherlands - wanting to and the smaller nations - Greece, Ireland, Portugal, for example - owe far too much to the EU in terms of their economy to turn their backs on it.

I think in the face of future challenges to come - battles over resources such as water and energy - it would serve is better to be bargaining collectively within the EU that sitting isolated on the edge, contributing nothing and gaining nothing.

I am excited that we will get our democracy back - says Britbrit.

But will you be so excited to find that in order to continue to supply goods and services into the EU we have to make our UK laws 'equivalent' to EU laws? For example, take labelling or production of food products, like chocolate. To sell chocolate in EU countries our UK suppliers will still have to label the product in accordance with EU requirements and also make sure that the chocolate has the EU required levels of cocoa and what-ever-else-goes-into chocolate. UK banks and other financial institutions, like insurers are all subject to rules about who owns them, who runs them and how much capital they need to operate - rules put in place by the EU to protect customers - and if our banks/insurers etc want to continue to operate across the EU then the UK will need to ensure that our rules etc are 'equivalent ' to EU rules - and on 24 June these rules will be 'equivalent' as they are already incorporated into UK legislation. However, if at some point in the future the EU decides to toughen up some of those rules or add new rules then the UK will have to do the same if it wants to still operate in the EU - but the UK will have had no say in those changes.

If we stay in, then we have a say on how legislation is formulated and can protect our position - if we leave, then we will end up having no involvement in new laws and regulations but will have to maintain our existing laws or enact new laws which 'mirror' those of the EU so we can continue to trade within the EU.

But will you be so excited to find that in order to continue to supply goods and services into the EU we have to make our UK laws 'equivalent' to EU laws?

There is no single market - it's an illusion. -A single market does not have different languages, different electrical standards, etc. It's a customs union. There is no single market in services - it's been trying to get one for decades and failed.

For example, take labelling or production of food products, like chocolate. To sell chocolate in EU countries our UK suppliers will still have to label the product in accordance with EU requirements and also make sure that the chocolate has the EU required levels of cocoa and what-ever-else-goes-into chocolate.

No problem with that. Can also make products to the specifications of other people we will sell to in the world. That's being flexible.

• UK banks and other financial institutions, like insurers are all subject to rules about who owns them, who runs them and how much capital they need to operate - rules put in place by the EU to protect customers - and if our banks/insurers etc want to continue to operate across the EU then the UK will need to ensure that our rules etc are 'equivalent ' to EU rules - and on 24 June these rules will be 'equivalent' as they are already incorporated into UK legislation. However, if at some point in the future the EU decides to toughen up some of those rules or add new rules then the UK will have to do the same if it wants to still operate in the EU - but the UK will have had no say in those changes.^

Honestly - you are creating problems where none exist.

If we stay in, then we have a say on how legislation is formulated and can protect our position - if we leave, then we wiWhen we are out of the EU - we make our own rules. Trade with us or don't.Banks will not be bothered. HSBC already staying here.

ll end up having no involvement in new laws and regulations but will have to maintain our existing laws or enact new laws which 'mirror' those of the EU so we can continue to trade within the EU.

And how much 'involvement' do you think we have in making these rues at present? 72 times we have asked for changes and 72 times we've been refused. We have 17% of vote in the Council of Europe. That will decline when new members join the EU. We cannot influence anything in the EU - as Cameron discovered. It is unreformable.

Let's get out and rebuild a fairer EU that is not beholden to big business, big banks and hedge funds. Since when did they - the Remain campaign's funders' have workers rights at heart? That's hilarious

springining do i really have to remind you again that the UK got its position on 97% ish of EU legislation?

Why should the UK have more influence than other countries? Is there some god-given ex-empire right to have more say? How can the UK "rebuild" something it has exited from?

springining do i really have to remind you again that the UK got its position on 97% ish of EU legislation?

You see, this is the fundamental difference between Remain and Leave.

It's that damned 3%.

A sovereign country does not agree to even 1% of legislation from a foreign power. A sovereign country is one that makes its own laws that benefit its citizens - not one whose laws can be overruled by the EU.

Should the Uk wish to voluntarily enter into any agreement - great. But to have laws made by a foreign body forced on you because you are shackled to a declining trade bloc, the EU is not democracy.

What happens when that 3% contains something really bad? Are you going to comply with the 3% then? People trafficking with Turkey seems acceptable - the EU pays a ransom to Turkey. How far are you willing to go morally to comply with that EU 3% of law you do't actually want but can't refuse?

Springing - any international organisation we are engaged with doesn't always agree with us.It stands to reason that from time to time you're outvoted and that's also healthy - there should be give and take.

On issues of critical national importance then there is a veto so that doesn't fall under the 3%.

If we leave because of democracy, does that mean we should also get rid of the Lords and the monarchy?

This editorial from the FT - who are supporting remain - covers off the main issues and is very readable. on.ft.com/1XXh21N

jasper - i heard a disturbing rumour that in the event of a leave vote gove et al may move to make Farage a lord/ baron or something so he can be part of the government via the House of Lords rather than have to fight a bielection.. democracy my left elbow

Springing - any international organisation we are engaged with doesn't always agree with us.It stands to reason that from time to time you're outvoted and that's also healthy - there should be give and take.

Any agreement must be voluntarily entered into. If it isn't is illegal as it was conducted under duress. The EU places us under duress.

On issues of critical national importance then there is a veto so that doesn't fall under the 3%.

There is no definition of critical national importance. You could not even begin to define it as you have no idea of what could emerge to be considered as critical national importance. And of importance to whom? Us or the other 27 members?

That again describes the difference between Remain - who think you can and must legislate for every eventuality in every area and the Leavers who accept that new situations will arise and must be treated pragmatically, proportionately and flexibly.

Like the C18th laws on mobile phones and internet access.

springing we have voluntarily entered into it. We signed Treaties.

Which outline clearly the areas of national sovereignty like tax, defence, most of justice and home affairs... I strongly suspect you don't know your EU law

'Jasper - i heard a disturbing rumour that in the event of a leave vote gove et al may move to make Farage a lord/ baron or something so he can be part of the government via the House of Lords rather than have to fight a bielection.. democracy my left elbow'

They want Farage out of the way, harmless in the House of Lords, so that he can't challenge them in elections. If Farage accepts it, then he will have sold the people out, but he is not in brilliant health and therefore may choose to exit the fray and abandon the fight for the people.

If we leave because of democracy, does that mean we should also get rid of the Lords and the monarchy?

If a democratically elected Government stands on a manifesto promising to abolish the HoL/and or ?Monarchy and wins a majority then yes - abolish them. That's democracy in action. You can't abolish the EU - you don't get that opportunity.

you can also by that token springing vote for a government that categorically states it will take the UK out of the EU and trigger article 50.

jasper - i heard a disturbing rumour that in the event of a leave vote gove et al may move to make Farage a lord/ baron or something so he can be part of the government via the House of Lords rather than have to fight a bielection.. democracy my left elbow

Operative words - 'rumour' and 'desperate'.

At least Farage has faced the electorate (albeit as an MEP) . Remind me when I voted for Junckers or Tusk, or any of the EU's other 5 Presidents

you can also by that token springing vote for a government that categorically states it will take the UK out of the EU and trigger article 50

I would. I'd be at that polling station at 7am

Farage has stood for Parliament, what, five times now, and lost every time. Accepting elevation to the Lords while complaining about democracy would be breathtakingly hypocritical.

But gives him a platform so I expect he'd accept. Particularly as he'll lose his MEP seat that he claims expenses on but never turns up to.

well actually you kind of did vote for Juncker in a broad sense. He was the candidate of the EPP. Since they got a majority across Europe he was therefore in line to be Commission President. Each group nominated a candidate.

and then the governments you voted for agreed on him, as did the directly elected European Parliament