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Brexit

#2 Anyone feeling worried now?

313 replies

nearlyhellokitty · 14/06/2016 10:28

Link to the previous thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2656228-Anyone-else-really-worried-now

Seems like it was a useful threat started by MrsBlackthorn and it hit the big 1000 so I took the liberty to restart it!

Original post:
My work has started quietly drawing up contingency plans for if Brexit happens. Same at DH's work. Could mean lots of jobs moving to Germany and Ireland at both our firms. We're already seeing far fewer people investing or spending money.

I'm bloody terrified. Could lose my job. House could end up in negative equity. And for what?

I don't even think it's "project fear" from the government anymore... News today showed investors are taking money out of the UK faster than anytime since the crash. People with "skin in the game" voting with their money.

I understand that for lots of people the EU referendum isn't about money. however, because of a lot of it leaving, stopping coming in, or just simply being worth less... Well that leaves us screwed for a very long time. Fewer jobs. Less tax money coming in - so less money for the NHS and so on. So even if we 'take back control', of what exactly. what will we be 'in control' of?

I'm really worried about "Leave" happening and me and my family being utterly f*ed in a few months time as a result. Has the country lost its mind?

Anyone else worried about where this leaves us?

OP posts:
lavenderdoilly · 14/06/2016 15:29

While you are at it Google "Gove" and the "Freedom of Information Act". An entirely uk bit of legislation (no eu driver to it) that Gove tried to circumvent.

BrexitentialCrisis · 14/06/2016 15:32

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if this point has been made before / is completely irreverent.

However

The fact that we cannot seem to certifiably prove or disprove that the eu makes 60% of our laws shows the complexities of how our domestic legal system is meshed with the eu. The thought of how many lawyers, years and billions of pounds it will take to tease it all apart and fill in the gaps makes me sick with worry.

claig · 14/06/2016 15:33

"Research from Business for Britain published today takes a detailed statistical approach to the question of who makes Britain’s laws. On the one hand we had Nick Clegg claiming in his debate with Nigel Farage that only 7% of British laws were made in Brussels. On the other side Nigel Farage, quoting Viviane Reding, the former European Commissioner for Justice, claimed 75% of legislation originates from the EU. Turns out Nigel was far closer…

Today’s report‘s key findings:
•Between 1993 and 2014, 64.7% of UK law can be deemed to be EU-influenced. EU regulations accounted for 59.3%t of all UK law. UK laws implementing EU directives accounted for 5.4% of total laws in force in UK.
•This body of legislation driven by EU regulations consists of 49,699 exclusively ‘EU’ regulations, 4,532 UK measures which implement EU directives and 29,573 UK only laws."

order-order.com/2015/03/02/comprehensive-study-finds-64-7-of-uk-law-made-in-brussels/

claig · 14/06/2016 15:38

"Viviane Reding restates claim that 75% of our laws are EU based

In fact what she said was that ’75 percent to 80 percent’ of our laws are made by EU institutions, see the video below.

Now, many people may disagree with her, but bear in mind that any legislation we pass in the UK is always constructed or interpreted through the prism of EU law and, where there is a conflict, EU law is deemed to take primacy under various treaties that we have signed up to.

In effect this means that, unless we leave the EU, all our laws have to be ‘EU compliant’ in order to be effective. Where they are not compliant they will be construed by the courts in a compliant way. It matters not how they were drafted or what the intent behind them."

www.economicvoice.com/viviane-reding-restates-claim-that-75-percent-of-our-laws-are-eu-based/

lavenderdoilly · 14/06/2016 15:41

The evil legislation you are referring to is about levelling the economic playing field (we'd have to have them anyway to trade). The other stuff is to ensure employment and other rights apply equally and are as a result of discussions we are heavily involved in. Which is why Turkey has a long way to go before it meets the minimum equality standards required to join.

claig · 14/06/2016 15:45

'Which is why Turkey has a long way to go before it meets the minimum equality standards required to join.'

Didn't Cameron say something about him personally paving the way from Ankara to Brussels. I wouldn't put it past him, he is that type.

JessicasElephant · 14/06/2016 15:47

Governments like to spread the idea that 60% of our laws are made in Brussels, just so they can blame the EU rather than accepting responsibility. It the old "he made me do it" defence.

I'm still undecided, because I think governments are more accountable when they are more local, and I think the EU countries are pretty diverse economically and politically so having one government to control everything seems unworkable.
But equally, we have had a long era of peace in Europe, and I think that is (at least in some small part) down to the EU. Economically instability is pretty scary too.

lavenderdoilly · 14/06/2016 15:48

Getting and keeping Turkey in the west's fold has been a long standing foreign policy aim of uk and other countries - which is why Turkey is in NATO. As for DC being "the type", that doesn't sound like analysis based on anything to me.

claig · 14/06/2016 15:53

It was a joke just as hsi "personally" doing anything involving hard graft was.

Of course all the bigwigs and servants want Turkey in the EU, but the people don't and that is what this Referendum is all about. Who rules Britain and who makes our laws and who can sack any useless idiots in charge of making them?

This is about our democracy and the accounatbility of the people who govern us.

nearlyhellokitty · 14/06/2016 15:54

This makes the point that it's the right rather than the left that benefits from economic turmoil, it's an interesting take - has anyone come across Michael Chessum before? :
www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/its-time-leftwing-supporters-brexit-wake

"If Britain comes out on 23 June, a small portion of the left will cheer it on. Some are just on another planet, campaigning in a referendum that exists only in their own heads - in which Brexit will form part of a pushback against austerity. For others the calculation is that, yes, the right will benefit, and yes, migrants and workers will suffer – but it’s worth it in order to offer an abstract protest against the status quo and for some vague hope of destabilising David Cameron’s government. At best, this logic is wishful thinking. At worst, it is a cynical, almost accelerationist, attempt to leverage poverty and exploitation...

But for the left, the dangers of Brexit go deeper than the moral and human cost for workers and migrants. It is the right, not the left, that benefits from periods of economic chaos and social breakdown. Material defeats, and attacks on rights at work and on human rights, undermine the ability and the willingness of ordinary people to fight back against austerity. Add to that the spectre of rising nationalism and a popular mandate for smalltime racism, and the wrong outcome in this referendum could trigger the biggest rightward shift in British politics since the election of Margaret Thatcher in 1979.

There is undoubtedly a strong positive case for remaining in the EU. The European project has enabled the development of a shared political space in which the left can operate, and in which generations of Europeans have mixed; it provides a vital framework for the regulation of transnational capital; and yes, it has kept an imperfect lid on nationalisms which twice in a century saw Europe’s socialists slaughtered in trenches and concentration camps. It is important that the left, when asked the question of Europe, has a positive vision to propose – and that we are serious about pursuing it after the vote.

But in the final days of the campaign, it would be dishonest for me and other Remain campaigners on the left to pretend that this referendum is about hope. I have no desire to repeat the mistakes of Better Together. But these were not, at root, mistakes about negativity or positivity – they were about the fact that Labour joined hands with the Tories and posed as the respectable, discredited establishment. In order to cut through that establishment gloss, we must be relentlessly honest with working class and progressive voters about the stakes in this referendum. This is a defensive campaign for the left – called on terms campaigned for by Ukip and the Tory right for two decades.

This referendum is about migration, and always was. However much Britain Stronger In Europe wanted it to be about economics, however much the most obsessive Leave supporters wanted it to be about sovereignty, that is now openly clear. The plan is to make immigrants, and by extension the EU, the scapegoat for falling living standards, and if left unchecked this plan will win. The only argument that can counter this momentum – and one which has the benefit of being true – is that housing shortages, falling real terms wages and a decline in public services are the fault of corporate greed and failed government policy. Only the left can wage the kind of ideological counterattack that we need in the final days of the campaign.

... The outcome next Thursday will define British politics for decades, and yes, we are absolutely right to feel afraid."

OP posts:
claig · 14/06/2016 15:56

"It the old "he made me do it" defence."

The people who govern us are mainly servants. Take TTIP for instance. What the ruling class have done is to put it in the hands of an EU negotiation done in secret. When and if they finally agree on it and we the people object, our servants tell us that they can't do anything about it because it is an EU agreement, so we all have to shut up and wait for the next law our servants tell us they had no power to change.

That way the ruling class remove our democracy from us and get to pass what they want without objection.

lavenderdoilly · 14/06/2016 15:58

Claim, getting and keeping Turkey into the west's fold as a policy predates the EU by many years. I think both Greece and Cyprus might have something to say about Turk ish membership of the EU. It needs to improve its human rights and equality laws before it even has a sniff at membership.

Dapplegrey2 · 14/06/2016 15:58

Those who are becoming more fearful about a leave vote: is it the polls which are making you worried?
The polls got it completely wrong at the last election, and according to Mumsnet it was going to be a labour landslide Grin
I think the result is going to be very close - but neither I, nor anyone else, can predict the future.

BreakingDad77 · 14/06/2016 15:58

97% of stuffed we voted on went through - we are hardly getting the thin edge of the wedge on this!

Also UK scientific and research bodies get paid to develop these EU policies its not all some faceless eurobody in Brussels.

Again smoke and mirrors attempt by leave.

claig · 14/06/2016 16:03

'getting and keeping Turkey into the west's fold as a policy predates the EU by many years.'

Absolutely. These things are decided in the think tanks and the people are not consulted.

'I think both Greece and Cyprus might have something to say about Turk ish membership of the EU'

There is nothing they can do about it. They are economic basket cases and have to do as they are told. And by the way, so do we, which is why Bernard Jenkin said yesterday "will there be a referendum on Turkey joining?" Of coirse they won't and the EU will financially put the squeezers on any country that threatens to use its "veto". That is how it works. It is not democratic, it is horse-trading and the most powerful country wins, and that isn't us as we saw by Cameron's pathetic "negotiation" with the rest of them when he promised us so much and delivered so little because they told him where to get off.

BreakingDad77 · 14/06/2016 16:07

The plan is to make immigrants, and by extension the EU, the scapegoat for falling living standards, and if left unchecked this plan will win

All this anger about our services should be firmly with the government, the one that chooses to give tax breaks with one hand while taking benefits off the infirm with the other.

This is why I am worried, people have been sucked into austerity, scroungers vs grafters, that are services are over run - not underfunded. Whats ironic is Brexiters who worry about far right wingism on the increase in EU and don't see at all how they are complicit in it right now in the UK.

JessicasElephant · 14/06/2016 16:10

That way the ruling class remove our democracy from us and get to pass what they want without objection.

Essentially, the government (perhaps successive governments) have been able to blame everything on "the EU" as though it is some scary monster. Whilst often passing legislation which suits the agenda of big business with no regard for the needs or wants of the UK public. I don't see that as a reason to leave though - quite the opposite. The EU isn't a big scary monster, it is a democratically elected parliament. With elected UK representatives.

So the "sovereignty" question for me, really, is "do I want to be part of a big country, with a huge variety of cultures or do I prefer a smaller group of (relatively) likeminded people?"

MrsBlackthorn · 14/06/2016 16:10

1000+ posts on, I'm even more terrified. The nation is about to voluntarily vote for a recession that will affect me personally, and almost everyone I know... and for what?

It's absolute madness.

lavenderdoilly · 14/06/2016 16:15

MrsB, your posts are always sensible and reasonable. I'm a bit scared if you are. All we can do now is get the vote out. Leave make a lot of noise but I am not yet convinced they have more voters than remain. But remain will lose if people don't get out and quietly vote.

claig · 14/06/2016 16:16

'Whilst often passing legislation which suits the agenda of big business with no regard for the needs or wants of the UK public.'

Yes but the servants use the excuse that they had to do it to "comply with EU law". They can't do it on their own because their bosses know that the people can vote the servants out next time or go on strike etc and that will force them to change. But with the EU, there is no change because our servants tell us that they can't get the agreement of every other one of the 28 countries and trying to do so will be like Waiting for Godot, so it's just tough and we have to live with it and they have a right laugh.

That is why Donald Tusk is so frightened of teh British Referendum, as are all of the servants across the EI and in our country too, because he says it may be the "end of Western Civilization", by which he means that democracy will be restored and the servants will no longer be able to get up to their undemocratic tricks.

Motheroffourdragons · 14/06/2016 16:20

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on behalf of the poster.

claig · 14/06/2016 16:20

'and for what? '

For democracy which is what we fought a war for, to govern ourselves and remove the people who make our laws if we don't agree with them.

There is nothing more important than freedom and it is freedom that ensures prosperity and economic success, not EU approved austerity that is grinding Greece and Spain into the ground and trying to force Hungary to take more migrants under the threat of fines.

unexpsoc · 14/06/2016 16:22

"For democracy which is what we fought a war for, to govern ourselves and remove the people who make our laws if we don't agree with them."

Well done claig. May I ask what role you played in that war?

claig · 14/06/2016 16:24

'Indeed, what BfB also missed is how much of that law now emanates from unaccountable global bodies above the EU, which we would still have to obey whether we were in the EU or not'

We don't need to, we could withdraw from some treaties and make our own treaties rather than abiding by EU created ones. We would have our own seat on the World Trade Organisation, we would make our own deals.

Trump won't be told what to do by some suprantaional body, he says he tear up NAFTA and TPP etc because it harms US sovereignty.

We are the 5th largest economy in the world and we are governed by servants subject to the EU rather than the British people in may cases. We don't need to be.

unexpsoc · 14/06/2016 16:24

" freedom that ensures prosperity and economic success" - do you have any evidence for this? Historically, empirically etc. etc.