#2 Anyone feeling worried now?

[nearlyhellokitty]

Link to the previous thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/eu_referendum_2016_/2656228-Anyone-else-really-worried-now

Seems like it was a useful threat started by MrsBlackthorn and it hit the big 1000 so I took the liberty to restart it!

Original post:
My work has started quietly drawing up contingency plans for if Brexit happens. Same at DH's work. Could mean lots of jobs moving to Germany and Ireland at both our firms. We're already seeing far fewer people investing or spending money.

I'm bloody terrified. Could lose my job. House could end up in negative equity. And for what?

I don't even think it's "project fear" from the government anymore... News today showed investors are taking money out of the UK faster than anytime since the crash. People with "skin in the game" voting with their money.

I understand that for lots of people the EU referendum isn't about money. however, because of a lot of it leaving, stopping coming in, or just simply being worth less... Well that leaves us screwed for a very long time. Fewer jobs. Less tax money coming in - so less money for the NHS and so on. So even if we 'take back control', of what exactly. what will we be 'in control' of?

I'm really worried about "Leave" happening and me and my family being utterly f*ed in a few months time as a result. Has the country lost its mind?

Anyone else worried about where this leaves us?

We bailed out the Irish government entirely separately to any eu mechanism because it was in our economic interests to do so.

"unexpsoc. you misunderstood my point. "

And you misunderstand mine. If there are a normal number of southern Europeans here, ie a number you would expect anyway because of a usual level of migration between countries then you have no point. If there is an increased number then you do.

For example Maria whom I work with has been here since 2005. She is still here because she married a Brit and they have good jobs here. therefore, nothing to do with the global recession.

Limer I know you mean well, but as a continental who cares passionately about the ideal of the EU, I find this patronising at best. If we want out, we'll get out - we don't need the UK to show us the way, or to destabilise the EU "for our own good".

I do mean well

By "leading" I simply meant by being the first, not in the sense of showing the rest how it's done. And not founding a proto-ex-EU group (not yet, anyway ).

I voted in the 1975 referendum over 40 years ago (to remain as it happens). The EU of today is a completely different beast to the EEC of 1975.

I would like to know how those who want to remain think the EU will look like in another 40 years?

Every seems to be saying how terrible life will be for Britain in the near future if we leave. I cannot find anyone who will tell me what life is likely to be like for our children and grandchildren in 40 years time if we stay.

What do remainders think?

Remainers, not remainders!

The industry in which I work is centred in Germany and Austria. Our parent company is in Scandinavia. We import goods to the UK and also sell them to Europe and worldwide. Our main customers are distributors in Northern, Western and Southern Europe.

Many of my British industry colleagues work at these places in Europe.

DH works for a global company, he works in the UK but his department is based in Germany, all of his colleagues are based there, many of whom are British.

I can't see how our personal situation wouldn't be affected by Brexit actually. Not to mention our friends who live and work in Europe

grimbletarts the risk is much lower for staying since we know the parameters. Plus the membership of the EU has historically been linked with growth for the UK - so if we look to history we could assume growth. of course no one knows exactly what the future holds.

Grimble - who can say what life will be like in 40 years time. My inability to predict that does not mean I must vote leave.

I've not discusses the vote with anyone. Too flippin worried. I must make myself busy on the 24th so I'm not watching the fall out on tv.

Exactly nearlyhellokitty: no one knows the future. Except remainers are happy to "know" what "will" happen if we Brexit. But not what will happen if we stay.

Do we really know the parameters? I certainly would not assume growth - there are far too many variables. And growth, while very important, is not the only factor by which we should judge the future.

So, come on remainers, what do you think the EU look like in the future?

I am becoming ever more worried. Today's major worry is that people who want to leave are more motivated to vote than people who don't.

Grimble even Gove admits an economic downturn if we leave.
My predictions: my daughter's generation will make everything wonderful/completely screw it up/achieve something in between. We'll send a manned mission to Mars. Technological advances will be both a blessing and a curse.

meglett: the politicians who persuaded me to remain in 1975 were very keen to predict the future e.g. there would be no close political integration they assured us……yeah right.

All the "experts" told us we were mad not to join the Eurozone, many of them the same ones that are still pontificating about staying. Thank God we didn't listen to them.

I would be more impressed by the experts for remain if they were as willing to tell us what will happen if we stay as they are what will happen if we leave.

Sorry I don't trust them

I haven't discussed it either meglet, except with DH. I don't want to fall out with anyone over this.

I'm going to see a well-known leftie comedian on the 23rd. I don't know if he's in or out but I'll be glad to be listening to a more lighthearted take on it that evening.

grimbletart - I quite like being a remainder actually, sounds better.

The point with predictions is that as a general rule the further out you go the less you can know what will happen. When you voted for the EEC we didn't have personal computers, we were in the middle of a cold war and nobody knew what the heck "hummus" was. All of which have shaken the bedrock of how we live our lives. Far more than changes in the EEC to become the EU.

Over the next 40 years cash will disappear, cars will drive themselves and a pan-African war for resources will probably drag us in to a global conflict.

But if we are part of the EU at least we have a say in how it changes. Rather than standing off to the side watching it.

But a possible recession over the next 2 years will impact far too many people in far too many ways to ignore it.

I think you are all proving my point. It is impossible to predict the future. I agree. Yet all the remain experts are willing to predict the future if we leave. Not so willing to predict what will happen if we stay.

Of course Gove was willing to admit economic downturn if we leave. He's a realist.

I think the EU will go one of two extreme ways. Either political and fiscal integration in the Eurozone to try to save it and, later, the goal of a United States of Europe, with a European army etc. or, as we are now beginning to see, a greater sense of disillusionment with the EU (already higher in France and Germany than in the UK) and a breakdown.

Whichever way we vote I believe we should not be voting for the short term i.e to avoid a short term economic downturn or conversely to retain the advantages of the single market, but for the long term.

grimbletart - to be clear then, your argument is we have no idea what will happen long term - it could be good, or it could be bad. Therefore we should vote leave and definitely get short term pain for no reason?

grimbletart I think you can predict a sustained economic shock if we leave - the quesiton is 5,10,or 20 years.
if we stay, there may be other problems but if necessary Article 50 can always be invoked if it's getting that bad

Why do Remainers have to predict the future? I wouldn't be voting Remain if I thought major changes were required. The status quo surely doesn't require a vision of the future

'The status quo surely doesn't require a vision of the future'

Because as Digby Jones says, there is no real status quo because the future holds risks, such as the impending Greek bailout, the possible end of the Eurozone and the coming possible breakup of the EU, bank bail-ins to save European banks as was first tried by the EU in Cyprus which set that precedent.

As Gove said in the debate, there are risks to leaving and risks to staying and none of us knows what will happen in the future, but we will be safer and better able to handle what happnes in the future if we have control of our own affairs, laws, country and finances.

My biggest reason for wanting to remain is that we will see an even bigger erosion of our employment rights especially under a Tory government.

The Tories have already warned that leaving will mean more austerity. They had the cover of a banking crisis to be austere - more austere than was necessary with threats with ending up like Greece. (Which was bullshit but swallowed by the public).

So if we leave, it will give the tories an even better excuse to cut and cut to the extreme.

We will lose workers rights so I predict more things like zero hours contracts, the minimum wage will go (with the excuse that without the EU, U.K. Business needs to be more competitive and paying staff a decent wage doesn't fit with that )

Short term the economy will tank - you can already see the signs.

Medium to long term - it will take years to adjust to an exit. All of the things to be untangled.

We are already only partly in Europe. We don't have the Euro and we don't have to accept every EU law.

So I say remain.

And the last time I checked we do have control of our finances.

We do have control of our laws and our country and our affairs.

The Tories have a majority of 11, they can't get anything through. The Queen's Speech had next to nothing in it. Corbyn rebeled and stopped Osbrne driving his benefits plans through. Thatcher said "u turn if you want to" and that is all the Tories have been able to do.

After this referendum , the Tory Party will tear itself apart as the Brexiters and Bremainers have hurled insults at each other. Cameron will be out on his heels, there will be a leadership election and soon probably a general election. The old system is over whether we leave or stay.

Ha. Exactly what I've been trying to say.

'We do have control of our laws and our country and our affairs.'

If we did then why is Gove saying "take back control" and why have Gove and Boris split from their chums in the government and why is Sir Nicholas Soames dishing out four letter epithets to fellow Conservative MPs?