Anyone else really worried now?

[MrsBlackthorn]

My work has started quietly drawing up contingency plans for if Brexit happens. Same at DH's work. Could mean lots of jobs moving to Germany and Ireland at both our firms. We're already seeing far fewer people investing or spending money.

I'm bloody terrified. Could lose my job. House could end up in negative equity. And for what?

I don't even think it's "project fear" from the government anymore... News today showed investors are taking money out of the UK faster than anytime since the crash. People with "skin in the game" voting with their money.

I understand that for lots of people the EU referendum isn't about money. however, because of a lot of it leaving, stopping coming in, or just simply being worth less... Well that leaves us screwed for a very long time. Fewer jobs. Less tax money coming in - so less money for the NHS and so on. So even if we 'take back control', of what exactly. what will we be 'in control' of?

I'm really worried about "Leave" happening and me and my family being utterly f*ed in a few months time as a result. Has the country lost its mind?

Anyone else worried about where this leaves us?

' we will have to negotiate with them'

They need us more than we need them. They will offer us the moon to save themselves from their people and populist parties. They will not want to rock the boat and wake their people up because their people are more Eurosceptic than us now.

Yes quite, Just5. I mean most vocal for either leave or remain, by the way. Facebook in particular is a special place at the moment, with the incessant propaganda style posts

Yes, of course it's true of both sides.

I avoid Facebook political meme wars like the plague

This was Peter Oborne two years ago

"Rebellion is brewing against the political elite that has ruined Europe

'The idiot in Brussels' and his like may keep their jobs for now, but trust is evaporating fast "

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10782767/Rebellion-is-brewing-against-the-politicalelite-that-has-ruined-Europe.html

Now it is coming to pass. This undemocratic elitist project, for the benefit of a few, has ruined the economic prospects of the many and its proponents and servants have run out of get out of jail cards.

'I am not sure how you know this.'

Because it is about politics and power. The political class are just servants, they are desperate to remain in power in order to serve their purpose and complete the plans they have worked for. They understand what will happen to them if they lose and that is why they are scared stiff of the popular vote

“The EU policy elites are in panic. If the British vote to leave the shock will be so ghastly that they will finally wake up and realize that they can no longer ignore demands for democratic reform,” he said.

“They may have to dissolve the EU as it is and try to reinvent it, both in order to bring the Brits back and because they fear that the whole political order will be swept away unless they do,” he said.

If it collapses, some countries may ask to see the books, to see what went on and who benefited. Some fat cats and bankers and politician servants may have to answer some awkward questions.

My response to bring asked why I hope Greece gives the EU the V. I don't like the way they were treated. I don't like the way North Korea operates either.

The Greeks suffered a lack of access to their money. Did you blank the EU controlling Greek banks? They could do that to any country again. The Greeks couldn't take out enough money to buy a weekly shop in one day. They had no idea when it would end.

The EU didn't disaprove of borders being erected and trapping Syrian refugees in this case partly women and children in bankrupt Greece.

The problem was the media tried at first to trick the public that refugees were not mainly single young men . So when the large numbers of women and children did start to travel there was a lack of trust in reporting along with compassion fatigue. The Greek police struggle to protect the refugee women and children from men.

Claig - I find you fascinating and amusing. I love your faux-redneck rants. I truly do. I think they are easily, easily worthy of their own book, or at the very least a column in the National Enquirer. I can't help thing that your parody approach is already being ripped off by Private Eye in their column on online characters.

I also admire what I perceive to be your reasoning for doing it. I love that you are challenging people who seem to have all of the answers (at least when talking to themselves) about the issue or matter at hand. It is truly laudable. I also admire your ingenious attempts to hide your clear depth and breadth of understanding of issues behind a masquerade of overzealous piety for one cause or another - particularly your pretend-contempt for the Oxbridge PPE class.

But this is actually really fucking serious. The decisions we make will impact our country and way of life, families and children for years to come. There will be lurkers and participants on here who are still undecided and may actually think you are serious. So piss off with your thread derailing antics. It's clever and amusing, but learn the limits of when its appropriate.

'So piss off with your thread derailing antics'

I was with you until that point.

Here is a man at the heart of government who is deadly serious about it. They don't like what he says and the fcat that he dares say it. But, fortunately we are lucky enough to live in a democracy, so he and others have the right to say it

"EU Referendum: Michael Gove says 'time to fire unelected elites'

The leading campaigner for Britain to Leave the European Union, Michael Gove, has hit out at what he has described as "the invincible arrogance of Europe's elites".

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36450189

I was with you until that point.

I'm not worried, I'm looking forward to it, going to be very interesting and quite exciting I think

What will happen if the vote is to brexit?
Will people be wandering the streets dazed and zombie like, or rioting, drunken revelers?

What will happen if the vote is to brexit?
Will people be wandering the streets dazed and zombie like, or rioting, drunken revelers?

Poor compliant high IQ remainers coming to terms the peasants and shy leavers got their way.

No need to worry Westminster won't let it happen.

I kind of admire the determined optimism of those who maintain that European governments will be falling over themselves to do a trade deal with us that would create a free trade area in goods and services (remember, Switzerland doesn't have that) with massive concessions to Britain including on free movement. Despite the fact that such a deal would see at least two if not three governing parties in Western Europe being turfed out in their next elections.

Unfortunately those people are also forgetting why the EU has trade barriers in the first place

Would the UK stop buying from France and Germany? Which sectors are modelled to make the shift? We will have to buy from somewhere and, with no immediate trade deals on the horizon Europe may still be a feasible option for a lot of stuff, depending on what protectionist measures we might employ.

But would, say, German businesses benefit from other MS companies looking within the EU for what they previously bought from Britain? Yep.

Even the Brexit leaders admit that there would be some economic pain and restructuring, which given they are literally driving round in a bus painted with lies is quite the concession - and quite telling.

I suspect if we leave we will be encouraged to go green. Solar panels, make do andvmend along with grow your own being encouraged. Quality produced products to be exported and so forth.

Will we hear the distant hoofbeats of war, famine, pestilence and the other one?

I suspect if we leave we will be encouraged to go green. Solar panels, make do andvmend along with grow your own being encouraged. Quality produced products to be exported and so forth.

On what evidence are you basing this? Current direction of travel is quite different and if we aren't bound by 2030 targets political short-termism has a better chance of prevailing.

Will we hear the distant hoofbeats of war, famine, pestilence and the other one

It's either death or boring hyperbole that details proper discussion, I can't remember.

I'm an expat in the EU so yes, I am very worried! For sure I won't be kicked out tomorrow, but in terms of longer term access to pensions etc..

Objectively, if we leave, there will be several years of uncertainty while the politicians (?? who will it be?? Gove? IDS? Boris? Cameron?? ) work out a plan and try and negotiate. will it be 2/ 5 or 10? Who can tell? But it will be complicated. During that uncertainty the job market will not be pretty - so our school and uni leavers will be disproportionately affected. They are UKIP/ Leave's sacrificial lambs for sure.

Here's what happened with Switzerland recently by the way - infacts.org/dont-envy-switzerland/ as a potential example. Basically, what people wanted on immigration didn't come to pass because of the need to still access the single market but on the other hand lots of things people liked about the EU got shafted.

I am also pretty worried about what happens next for Europe without the UK as a counterbalance....

Longer term. Who can tell.

yourperception why do you think we'll be encouraged to go green? Current government policy is to encourage gas and nuclear. The EU is the one pushing renewables targets to the annoyance of the UK govt, for one.

Also, if you want a high share of renewables best to be connected to the continent through grids etc to counterbalance the variability of renewable power.

The solidarity with Greece on this forum is indeed heartwarming.

However, when you look at how the UK invoked the Anti-Terrorism Act (2001) to freeze all Icelandic assets in the UK, it smacks just a little of ignoring the beam in your own eye while pointing out the mote in another. The UK Gov't gave a deposit protection guarantee up to a certain amount for deposits in banks in the UK. It chased Iceland (the state) to pay the money guaranteed by the UK govt in the Icelandic Commercial bank in the UK when it went belly up. It lost it's court case with a ruling that established the principle that national governments are not always responsible for the overseas liabilities of their banks that fail.

www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/98225
40/President-of-Iceland-attacks-Gordon-Brown.html

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/total-victory-for-iceland-over-uk-in-saga-of-icesave-depositors-8470714.html

Iceland won it's court case. People invested in a commercial bank which promised wonderfully high interest rates. It was a gamble. It went belly up. "Iceland has so far used the liquidated assets of Landsbanki to pay out 90 per cent of what foreign governments are owed." The Icelandic Gov't quite rightly didn't dump the problem on their taxpayer to pay back a private banks investors.

Unfortunately for the Irish population, the Irish Gov't did. They forced the debt obligation of private banks on the Irish taxpayer. The Taxpayer was saddled with paying people who should have been burnt in their gamble. They had to repay unguaranteed bondholders billions of euro in debts to which they have no relation, to ensure the solvency of European banks. Unlike with Greece, it wasn't a state issue. The government of the day forced private debt to become a public burden.

New version of Capitalism. You keep your profits, but the state pays you back your losses. No risk for high returns.

Slightly off the topic, but concern and Solidarity for Greece mentioned.

Personally, Im utterly fed up with being told/labelled that if I vote out ....a/ Im racist b/Im a little Englander c/ I must be poor or uneducated etc etc etc. Ive never heard or read such utter rubbish based on zero facts in my entire life, that are quite simply coming from the 'remain' camp. In a nutshell, if I want to live in a sovereign nation, that controls its own laws, borders, spending, then I am the devil incarnate. What a shocking way to manipulate a population. To the OP. No you wont be at any higher risk of losing your job if we stay in or opt out. Business leaders have been negotiating contracts and trade deals with the rest if the world since world trade began. The contracts your current employer delivers remain in force whichever way a vote goes. The scaremongers who claim money is being 'removed' from the UK, are just that...simply adding to the scaremongering. "Money" has always been sloshed around world financial institutions. It still exists within that organisation, whether it sits in a Barclays account or sits in an offshore tax haven. Where a business is registered, is also irrelevant as to whether youll keep your job. Its all utterly irrelevant.

What is relevant, is that whilst weve now apparently shifted this debate to one that affects poor, uneducated, racist, little englander types (!!!!!!!!!!!) to remain does indeed guarantee that care workers will continue to be paid miminun wage for their 12 hour shifts in a dementia home, that the likes of Sports Direct can continue to employ on zero hour contracts on minimum wage and that objection to the same will merely see these roles filled by economic migrants. Maintaining the lowest salary bill possible enables the highest profits for the upper echelons, and the only way to maintain a persistant low salary bill, is to over supply available labour in the lower skilled areas. Thats exaclty what open movement and remaining in Europe means, it is quite simply guaranteeing a supply of cheap labour. Vote remain if you will, but dont dress it up as anything other than profiteering at the most vulnerables expense.

Vote remain if you will, but dont dress it up as anything other than profiteering at the most vulnerables expense

You know that bit where you spent most of a post ranting about how much you object to people questioning your motives for voting leave?

Try it on for size, eh?

I think there are both principled and deeply selfish reasons for voting either way.

My own view is that the poorest and most vulnerable would be more negatively affected by leaving than remaining, both in terms of impact from post-Brexit economic pain, and in terms of long-term hits to public spending caused by lower GDP and losing the subsidy the public purse gets from EU immigrant taxpayers. Others think I'm wrong, and I think they're wrong. Given that none of us actually know the future, we're all making best guesses given the evidence we have available.

Chris
"Personally, Im utterly fed up with being told/labelled that if I vote out ....a/ Im racist b/Im a little Englander c/ I must be poor or uneducated etc etc etc"
"Vote remain if you will, but dont dress it up as anything other than profiteering at the most vulnerables expense."

Would you like somebody to explain what a double standard is?

In answer to your first point - if the remain campaign is making you think that then they are failing to get their message across properly. It would be interesting to know which of the things they have said have made you think that. I personally think both of the main campaigns have been frankly pisspoor. Two teams standing at their respective sides shouting "I am right and if you don't see that you are an idiot" rather than trying to engage people properly in the debate.

claig - ah well, worth trying to temper your antics. I suppose the whole world is a stage after all.