Anyone else really worried now?

[MrsBlackthorn]

My work has started quietly drawing up contingency plans for if Brexit happens. Same at DH's work. Could mean lots of jobs moving to Germany and Ireland at both our firms. We're already seeing far fewer people investing or spending money.

I'm bloody terrified. Could lose my job. House could end up in negative equity. And for what?

I don't even think it's "project fear" from the government anymore... News today showed investors are taking money out of the UK faster than anytime since the crash. People with "skin in the game" voting with their money.

I understand that for lots of people the EU referendum isn't about money. however, because of a lot of it leaving, stopping coming in, or just simply being worth less... Well that leaves us screwed for a very long time. Fewer jobs. Less tax money coming in - so less money for the NHS and so on. So even if we 'take back control', of what exactly. what will we be 'in control' of?

I'm really worried about "Leave" happening and me and my family being utterly f*ed in a few months time as a result. Has the country lost its mind?

Anyone else worried about where this leaves us?

It didn't change overnight.

We were reminding our staff travelling well before that this was being implemented and suggesting if they wanted to be available to travel to the states they needed to check their passport had the chip.

...or spent an hour standing in an airport in Ho Chi Minh city clutching a letter and some dollars, wondering if you will get in or have to get on the next plane home.

My friend turned up to the airport for her anniversary holiday and found her husband wasn't allowed on the plane. I understand the implementation date was changed at little notice.

She had to spend £2000 getting a new passport and booking more flights, missing three days of her holiday.

Needless to say, she's not booking another trip to the states anytime soon.

My pity for people who can waste £2000 on three days of a holiday is rather limited.

I suspect the champagne and caviar probably soothed her woes.

Let's face it. The people that want to vote in have all the correct arguments.

And all the people that want to vote out also have all the answers

There is no win

Personally voting out think eu is not helping us just hindering us

When in doubt, ignore the thrust of the point and suggest that the person in question is a moneyed idiot.

(She had saved up for two years for the trip of a lifetime. Spending another £2000 in order to still be able to go for the remaining 11 days was the only way she could rescue the situation. She was devastated. But don't let that get in the way of your lazy assumptions about other people.)

Let's face it. The people that want to vote in have all the correct arguments.

And all the people that want to vote out also have all the answers.

There is no win

I don't know, I think there is a lot of grey and uncertainty and I've asked a lot of questions (of both sides) in good faith. Answers and engagement (instead of attacks and dismissive derailments) have been in short supply from both sides, but to me the Brexiteers have been thinner on fact and honest engagement and thicker on the nastiness, but that's no doubt a matter of perspective.

I've had the odd illuminating and respectful conversation too, which is refreshing. Sadly it's not the norm at the moment.

Nope. Savouring the fact we may break free of the bureaucrats

You want us to remain Jassy. Full stop. Stop being so rude and sneery towards those of us who don't.

They are strange times for sure. Who would have imagined, five years ago, that basket case Farage, whose message is basically 'lock the door and pull the covers over your head. So what if the economy tanks. We're British and we'll be Great again', would be sharing a platform (effectively) with the PM.

Nationalism is - and always has been - vile. Secular religion, basically, with a nod to democracy thrown in to make people feel their views have some moral basis.

Why is nationalism vile Figment.? Why does every country have a national anthem they belt out? Sports teams and athletes they support? A common language? I don't get your point at all.

Between this and Trump, I'm feeling pretty low about things at the minute. Can't believe Brexit is a possibility.

I'm with Figment. I find the concept of patriotism absolutely bizarre, really can't relate to it and feel it does much more harm than good.

I think both are a reaction to globalisation, but that's where any comparison ends for me.

I am terrified we will get brexit

Am at a loss as to how people can't see that the advocates of leave are some of the most extreme right wing politicians we have seen. Covered by a veneer of jokey blokey humour.

There is an alarming lack of understanding among a lot of people about how the EU really works. About all the positive legislation EU has introduce. About all the very frightening and likely consequences of brexit.

We can't turn back time and make Britain "great" in the way people keep referring to, that harks back to a time when Britain had a vast empire. Let's be realists about the state of Geo politics today and about the reality of a post-brexit UK. X

a vote for brexit could lead to very dark times ahead. A vast shift to the very right. And a much weaker global voice and economy.

(Also, what earthbound said.... I would lump brexit voters in the same category as trump voters...deceived into voting for a future that will probably be harsher for them)

Why would leaving shift us right? I don't understand.

You want us to remain Jassy. Full stop. Stop being so rude and sneery towards those of us who don't.

As I've said, very often, I think it's a judgement call on how we are all balancing competing factors. On balance, I think we should remain, based on the evidence I've seen and the research I've done. However as on all matters I'm open to changing my mind and on Brexit I've changed my mind on some issues, abandoned some assumptions and have gained a greater understanding of a number issues that have brought me closer to the centre on this issue. In part thanks to the fact other Mumsnetters have been willing to discuss issues in good faith.

Clearly you are not inclined to do so.

Where was I rude and sneery, rather than factual?

Staying in the EU could lead to very dark times. There's no safety there. Do you really think that countries like Germany and France couldn't become very right wing with right wing governments throwingpebbles? Sorry, but I think youre delusional.

I read this and thought it made sense

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding about June 23rd, and people want to know the facts. Here are some:

You are not voting to leave the EEA or WTO, meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged should we leave, until such a time that the UK decides to renegotiate them for any reason.

You are not voting to leave NATO, meaning our security agreements remain unchanged. Should we receive an act of hostility from a non-NATO member, then NATO countries are obliged to come to our assistance. This does not change.

You are not voting to leave the UN, G8 or G20, meaning Britain will have the same voice on the world stage as it does today.

You are not voting to leave Europe!! The UK will still, geographically, be part of Europe. Non political organisations aligned to Europe will still extend membership to the UK (I.e. sports governing bodies, and so on).

You are not voting to stop recognising Interpol, Europol and neither are you voting for SIS / MI6 to stop dealing with other intelligence services in the fight against terrorism and global, organised crime.

You are not voting against being able to travel to Europe, contrary to the belief of some fools recently on TV. The UK has always maintained stricter border and passport controls than many EU members. This will not change. You will still use a passport to go on holiday and you will still be allowed entry to countries in Europe. You may even get chance to skip queues by using the non--EU queues at the airport (the only point so far that is my opinion, and not necessarily a fact).

The UK economy will benefit to the tune of £billions in the first year after we leave.

Medical and science research will not simply stop. The UK pays into the EU to then get money back in the form of funding. The UK will now be in control of this money and can choose to fund whatever UK based medical, science, art or other research it chooses.

Farming will not lose money because of EU funding being cut. The UK negotiated a rebate of some monies that the UK pays to the EU, in order to subsidise UK farmers. Instead of asking for our money back, we can give it straight to farmers. No change there.

You are not voting against human rights. The EU Convention on, and European Court of Human Rights are not part of the EU. Until parliament passes a new bill of rights for the UK, these will still apply, as will precedents already passed down to UK courts from Brussels.

You are not voting to kick anyone out of the UK or block access to anyone. Neither are you voting to stop recruiting valuable European workers into things like the NHS. Like my other point about passports for travel, the UK is already outside of the Schengen zone and so migrant workers must enter the UK with a valid passport before and after June 23rd. That will not change. British borders maintain full control of who comes and goes. Should someone have the skills to apply to work in the NHS, then they will still be permitted travel and given an opportunity to apply for a job. Worst case, points based assessment, like the US, Canada and Australia use, will come into effect. The UK is likely to negotiate freedom of labour movement though, in exchange for freedom of goods movement.

You are not voting to move jobs nor production out of the UK! The EU actually helped fund the move of Ford Transit production from the UK to Turkey... Yes, the EU helped give UK jobs to people in Turkey by giving Ford a loan of £80m with very generous terms!

What you are voting for is UK sovereignty. You are voting to stay in or leave a political union of leaders and representatives that you British people did not elect. You are voting against a commission of unelected, elite men that nobody at all voted for and yet they make decisions on our behalf. You are simply voting to bring sovereignty back to Westminster, and that is all. If you worry about that because you don't like the Conservative government, look at the reality. Their majority in parliament is very slim. They have been blocked on big decisions already. You are therefore not giving sovereignty to David Cameron, but to the UK House of elected representatives. Do not be fooled by the fear campaigns that are simply run by the wealthy, who need EU money to thrive! Think about the future, and your family's future.

I will admit that often in these conversations I do get extremely frustrated by the tone of the conversation and have become a bit sarcastic. I don't think that's 'sneery' but I'm sorry if I didn't come across the way I meant to. I'm human and I get frustrated,

I spend every day researching and working with EU and UK legislation and politics at all levels. I suspect I am far less delusional than most on these issues throughthick

Is he going down the Uxbridge Road on the 207 Mrs blackthorn?

I know Jassy and I know it means a lot to you, ive read your situation, not sure if it's this thread or a different one. I know you feel picked on, and you shouldn't. But you have to respect that people dont feel the same, and to leave means a lot to us too.

You are not voting to leave the EEA or WTO, meaning all of the UK's trade and benefit agreements will remain unchanged should we leave, until such a time that the UK decides to renegotiate them for any reason

I think this is incorrect? Our membership of the EEA is currently contingent on our EU membership so by voting to leave the EU we are implicitly voting to leave the EEA. We may negotiate to rejoin it but that would be the subject of negotiation and agreement with the other parties, and there would need to be concessions on our side too as in any negotiation - and those concessions should be made very clear to voters and possibly put to a general election before they're agreed because some of them may be just as unpalatable to some voters as remaining in the EU.

What's the source for that? It's very well (and cleverly) written - but there is also some dishonesty, eg about recruiting NHS workers. Many wouldn't be eligible under the current immigration rules for income. It also claims something will happen in several places where the reality is that it's only possible that it could happen.