Latest immigration stats released & they are gigantic again

[BritBrit]

The final immigration stats from the ONS before the EU referendum have been released with immigration for 2015 at 630,000.

-630,000 immigrants came to the UK
-Net immigration was 333,000 up 20,000
-EU immigration was 270,000
-Romanian & Bulgarian immigration tripled in 2015
-42% of EU immigrants did not have a job when coming to the UK
-EU immigrants took more new British jobs (224,000) than British workers (185,000)

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/may2016

Problem we have is these right wing types who only want to pay market rates for jobs but complain about immigration, and wont take on staff and train them up.

people in the UK in general will follow whatever the leader of the Tory party says

I hope not, as that would mean a "remain" vote!

I am personally don't think that Leave offers the solution to immigration because its not something that can be controlled by any of the measures that have been proposed.
(In/Out of the EU isn't just about immigration though)

Its not that I am not concerned about issues associated with increasing population and planning. I am.

I do think its a global problem that requires a global solution and working together to tackle things like corruption, investment outside our own country, encouraging political stability etc etc.

Whether the EU is a vehicle that can help bring that international consensus and solution is quite another matter. (And is more relevant to the IN/OUT debate about migration - and must not be confused with 'border intergrity' and free movement)

I just don't believe in the drawbridge / visa method as that's not solving the underlying PUSH / PULL factors. Its not really a solution. At best, its a pebble kicking down the road exercise to a much bigger problem.

I certainly don't think encouraging a Them and Us climate where UK interests are separate to the interests of other European nations is a healthy one though. We SHARE the same concerns about increasing populations, and I don't think being an island nation makes us immune or any more able to stop or control migration in a genuinely meaningful way or to a level that 'is manageable' than Germany, The Netherlands, France, Spain, Greece or anywhere else.

The issue, are and will continue to be the same. Global population, inequality and political unrest.

It won't change anything in the medium to long term.

Controlling our borders may work for a while (I personally think it will be an exercise in spending a lot of time, money and effort and will have very little impact on numbers), but at best it will only have a limited time, short term solution, it is effective. IF it works at all. And that's a rather big and questionable IF.

I'd rather start to try and tackle the actual problems, rather than continuing to fail to acknowledge what's driving migration to us, as much as being rather arrogant about it and only focusing on what's pulling migration in.

I've not ONCE heard a Leaver who talks about migration control talk about options to encourage and support people to stay where they currently are. Its all about 'keeping out', 'them and us' and generally seeing it as a problem for the UK only. Indeed, 'foreign aid' is a dirty phrase and something Leave want to stop. The excuse then becomes, corruption. And that's all it is, an excuse. It IS a problem. But that's just it. Another problem that needs a solution. The question merely shifts to how you fix that too.

We don't live in a vacuum. The Leave argument and proposal on immigration, rest entirely on the idea that we do.

I agree it's a global problem, but we have very little influence over what other countries do to keep people where they are, and we have a limited say in what is currently happening due to EU legislation so we can only do what we can to 'keep them out' as awful as that sounds, and i'm not saying close the borders by any stretch. Would we not have more control if we were independent? I think it would be an improvement to have the control back - like Japan, Singapore, Australia. Look at the Scandinavian/Nordic countries for instance - they seem to be flourishing.

I'm asking again because everyone is studiously ignoring my question.

How does it serve this country to provide a Romanian family of 7 with housing, when neither parent brings any special skill and both are jobless? Three days after arriving they had been allocated a 4 bed house.

Is the UK the social worker of the world?

I don't dispute that they have migrants, but they are clearly managing it much better than we are.

If we Brexit, it all and I mean all depends on the expertise of those negotiating on our behalf. Goliath will throw his weight around of course, so UK has to be savvy. No one will come away with everything they want or do not want, but negotiation is exactly that - you concede on something but not the main reasons for exiting out of EU.

Japan - has a massive issue at the moment due to its aging workforce and population and next to no immigration as it has some of the strictest rules in the world on it.

There is a debate going on there about whether they need to relax the rules.

Their economy is not doing as well as you suggest. They have been in a period of prolonged stagnation. It has the highest level of debt per GDP in the world (though this is different to elsewhere due to the fact that its largely domestic debt rather than international debt). It has problems with deflation despite having extensively used quantitive easing aimed at solving the problem.

Nordic countries - is there success down to independence or good governance / different political ideology? Norway is the only one not in the EU, Sweden, Denmark and Finland are, though Denmark is not Eurozone. Is Norway doing substantially better than Sweden and Finland? Or Denmark? Does Norway have less immigration than any of them? (Its Schengen but not EU) It has one of the highest costs of living in the world but that is balanced by having one of the most extensive welfare states. The UK does not have this safety net in place, so its a different ball game if the social experiment of leaving doesn't work. The poor potentially have more to loose with no guarantee the welfare state will be extended (and currently there is every reason to believe it will be scaled down meaning the model is more like the US one with a greater level of poverty and difference between rich and poor than exists in Norway).

Australia only is able to have the border control it has due to its geography. It has had problems still with immigration both legal and illegal from asia. Australia focused on its natural resources and trade with China. It looks like it might be on the brink of recession as the market in China has collapsed and now China has massive surpluses of things such as steel.

Singapore was talked about last night on the debate programme and I confess to not knowing much about their economy. It was pointed out by Remain that it still wants to be part of Asian Trading blocks though and wasn't thinking of leaving like the UK is.

I think the idea that we are not independent is a bit of a misleading one though. It suggests we can exist without cooperation and compromise.

Every example there is as an alternative to the EU involves cooperation and compromise at some level. I'm not sure that gives us back any of this mythical independence we are looking for.

I think we have an Empire Hangover rather than a proper understanding of our current power and influence in the current political era.

I think we need to be realistic about what Leaving will mean, and what it won't mean rather than thinking about it in utopic terms.

I don't think the world will crash down like Remain suggest, but I do think the dream Leave are trying to sell, is just that. A dream.

I'm asking again because everyone is studiously ignoring my question.

How does it serve this country to provide a Romanian family of 7 with housing, when neither parent brings any special skill and both are jobless? Three days after arriving they had been allocated a 4 bed house.

Is the UK the social worker of the world?

Is that an immigration problem or a problem of allocating social housing? EU immigrants are allowed the same as residents here. The problems are with the rules for all social housing not just with the fact of their status as a migrant.

Yes it is a problem. Its not one that will be solved purely by stopping immigration though. We will continue to have problems with housing. We will continue to have problems with migration.

And yes, if we are one of the leading economies of the world we should take on the responsibility of being the social worker of the world. Because it benefits our own citizens as well as foreign ones.

It does not necessarily mean we spend the money for housing on our own soil either.

Which I have mentioned and addressed in previous posts.

There is no Them and Us. That's the problem.

How does it serve this country to provide a Romanian family of 7 with housing, when neither parent brings any special skill and both are jobless? Three days after arriving they had been allocated a 4 bed house.

We don't know.
Do we know anything about their current skills?
Will the children grow up to be valuable citizens?

Are they worth or more less than any other random UK 7 strong family who may have been on benefits more of their lives?

Do we know what happened to the parents? Did they get jobs? Are they contributing?

Choosing to be innovative, independent, original, creative and progressive always involve venturing confidently into "the unknown".

That's a positive thing and what Britain should be aiming for, not hiding timidly because we can't be sure what's round the corner.

Our country will be what we make it after leaving the EU. We'll be able to co-operate on our own terms without having to agree to what Brussels tells us we must do. If we remain, we'll predictably get more of what the EU already give us (very little) and gradually give up all control to Nanny EU. If you do what you've always done, you get what you've always got.

If we leave the EU we will be able to get on with being productive, resourceful, contemporary, unique Great Britain. I'm excited, not afraid, to see what that will look like.

There's a large amount of posts on this thread with the undercurrent of 'we are stuck with the EU and immigration, numbers are going to rise whether you like it or not so just suck it up'. Well we have this chance, one chance, one chance only, of getting control of our country and immigration again. Of issuing visas to those who we do want for specific jobs, for a limited time, and saying no thank you to those who we don't need.

Actually the question regarding the Romanian family is rather more simple, 'Would a family of 7 arriving in Romania from the UK with no jobs be taken care of in the same way the Romanian family arriving in the UK are?' If not then that is a problem and there needs to be a control in place otherwise we are going to have lots of poorer families looking to move to the UK because of our more generous benefits and our own poor are going to end up going without because there is a finite amount of social housing.

And yes, if we are one of the leading economies of the world we should take on the responsibility of being the social worker of the world.

• To believe that we are the SWs of the world is arrogance – whether we had our citizens sorted or not, it is breathtaking arrogance and meddling.

It does not necessarily mean we spend the money for housing on our own soil either.

• A glimmer of commonsense. As (in this case) Romania receives EU money the govt there should be starting up building projects on their own soil. If they are not, then they should be reprimanded by the EU Commissioners.

Do we know anything about their current skills? Are they worth or more less than any other random UK 7 strong family who may have been on benefits more of their lives? Do we know what happened to the parents? Did they get jobs? Are they contributing?

• The parents clearly stated to the interviewer that they have no skills. Both very nice people, but the man said he was an odd-jobber – let’s say an unskilled labourer. They own their own house in Romania so strictly speaking they made themselves homeless (which is against Housing rules), and they are not a UK family.

In the next few episodes I hope we see what happens to that family. But 5 weeks after moving into a freshly renovated 4 bed house both were still jobless and both living on JSA, HB and perhaps child benefit.

This is not the way to go for Romania and Bulgaria. Their govt has had 9 yrs to come up with something, and just think of the work that bulding flats would create - even for unskilled labourers.

If you scale this situation down, it's rather like me providing first for a stranger family and ignoring my daughter's family who I know need help. Bonkers.,

Choosing to be innovative, independent, original, creative and progressive always involve venturing confidently into "the unknown". That's a positive thing and what Britain should be aiming for, not hiding timidly because we can't be sure what's round the corner.

I agree, Winterbiscuit. I was around pre-EU and it did not sit well with me that we disengaged from the Commonwealth so brutally. Brexit would be rather like becoming self-employed .... you have to be sharper, on the ball, more imaginative and resourceful.

I do understand that those who were not of age in 1973 may be frightened, but I think this is an absolutely marvellous opportunity to divest this country of a membership fee & conditions of use that are not worth staying a member for.

It's a toss-up between getting energised and motivated versus staying in a club that is enlarging all the time with members who cannot even pay the full memership fee, and the original members are expected to take up the slack.

We could become a force to be reckoned with, a country with good laws and evenhandedness and we could put the Please Apply sign out whenever we required specific skills. That is keeping a good house, that is proper stock-taking - not overbuying ad infinitum and then you cant shift the product and it's costing you to store it. I hope you get the analogy.

To believe that we are the SWs of the world is arrogance – whether we had our citizens sorted or not, it is breathtaking arrogance and meddling.

I think it depends on how you do it. It could be a spectacular disaster. But doing nothing is also a spectacular disaster so to be blunt about it, you are fucked either way.

Choosing to be innovative, independent, original, creative and progressive always involve venturing confidently into "the unknown".

That's a positive thing and what Britain should be aiming for, not hiding timidly because we can't be sure what's round the corner.

You know I think that's a great thing to say. One really, really positive comment in a sea of crap from Leave. I like that.

My only cavet on that, is it depends on your individual circumstances though. Making that gamble will be a lot harder for some than others. Some have a lot more to loose than others. Some have more to gain.

I am probably very firmly in the camp that has less to loose and more to gain from leaving tbh.

I do think everyone needs to make that judgment call and be able to see that for themselves though and I don't think that is clear.

Struggling to understand why this concept cant be grasped.

You come here after Eu ref, and you cant settle here in defiantly!

Like an American Tourist, cant, Chinese, Australian and so on.

Why is this so hard to understand? I said on another thread, perhaps some posters cant remember what it was like before 2000;s? Its so sad and worrying that being part of the EU in a marriage format, is the only thing some people know .

We can travel, live, move, and work in other countries, we just have to follow some rules first, thats all, its been done for a very long time PRE EU freedom of movement.

I am probably very firmly in the camp that has less to loose and more to gain from leaving tbh

In the short term we are probably in the very much loose camp financially.

There's a large amount of posts on this thread with the undercurrent of 'we are stuck with the EU and immigration, numbers are going to rise whether you like it or not so just suck it up'. Well we have this chance, one chance, one chance only, of getting control of our country and immigration again. Of issuing visas to those who we do want for specific jobs, for a limited time, and saying no thank you to those who we don't need

I couldnt agree more and its depressing to read. But I find Remain very depressing anyway.

I think everyone will loose in the short term. Its the nature of the beast of uncertainty. There is no getting away from it.

Its whether the medium and long term benefits are enough and whether we can ride out the short term problems and pain.

Its a gamble. That's the problem.