To ask if you think we will stay or go?

[TheoriginalLEM]

sorry its the EU.

i don't know that much but my gut feeling is we should stay.

however i think we will leave because strength of feeling seems to lay with the leavers wheras i think stayers might beless likely to vote or be in the not that fussed camp.

Again, this is a risky line of thinking, because we don't know the Devil. We don't know what the EU commission are plotting in their mysterious, secret meetings. We don't know

I agree with this. We do not know. We know are own devils very well very well indeed!

We have no idea who the other people are.

I think Britain is great right now actually, I am proud of our country. I dont think that much will change after the initial cut loose, things may dip and surge a little.

I just dont want to be latched onto a mothership whose direction we are unsure of.

, Dh was seconded there, that's why we are voting out. I don't think they will show how it really all works..like highlighting Juncker's penchant for lying, Merkel's ability to make unilateral decisions for the rest of the EU, their complete inability to sort the Greek crisis, or the migrant crisis for that matter

indeed!!

"Hard of thinking" Brexiters?

I'd hardly use this description for Dr Liam Fox, entrepeneur Sir James Dyson, Cambridge graduate in medicine Lord David Owen, Oxford-educated Daniel Hannan MEP, Oxford graduate and former President of the Oxford Union the Rt Hon Michael Gove, London law graduate Gisela Stuart MP (head of Vote Leave), Lord Nigel Lawson who has a 1st class degree from Oxford in Philosophy, Politics and Economics, economics graduate Kate Hoey MP, Oxford-educated Jacob Rees-Mogg MP, Matthew Elliott of Vote Leave who studied government at the London School of Economics, or law graduate and former barrister Theresa Villiers MP.

Millyonthefloss

I sort of understand this and the point of view in Paul Mason's article. But I think it underestimates the British people. If the Tories tried to bring in a load of extreme policies they would be straight out at the next General Election.

But think of the damge they could do before the next election - think of things that they tried and sometimes succeeded to push through even when they had a minority government (Snoopers' Charter - still ongoing; deregulation of workers' rights; tripling of tuition fees; bedroom tax, work capability assessments and various other moves that disproportionately affected the most vulnerable are just a few that spring to mind). Osborne, in particular, terrifies me - he is a complete ideologue and genuinely seems not to understand that being poor/vulnerable is not a lifestyle choice.

Although I agree, a UK government can be voted out, an incoming government can rarely roll back all the reforms that have taken place in the previous years, no matter how egregious.

Stay. Old people vote for what they know.

If people read my post properly they would see that I said that from what I had seen a lot of the Brexiters were hard of thinking very slightly racist types. The types who share any old bullshit on facebook, and give no critical thought to anything. There is a definite ilk of people I know who are Leavers.

I can't deny that, its just the way it is. It doesn't mean that everyone who wants to leave is a thicko, and I said that there was lots of intelligent debate about it on here. I was simply making an observation based on what I have seen in real life.

This is an interesting piece

www.socialistparty.org.uk/articles/22832

Mother, dh was seconded to the EU, was distinctly underwhelmed with how it operated and the lack of accountability and democracy, and so wants out. He doesn't feel like that about the other postings he has had here in Brussels, or his current job.

I don't like the unaccountabilty, the lack of guarantees from DC's so called negotiations, the direction of travel, and that we are not voting for the status quo if we vote to remain, but for an unspecified and unknown destination, and we can't decide to get off the bus en route. I have read that despite all the assurances we will be on the hook for Greece again, despite not being in the EZ. Until the 'assurances' that DC supposedly achieved are enshrined in the Treaties, they can, and will be reneged on.

I think the whole thing has got too big, too quickly, and that the latest list of those waiting to accede to the EU are potentially a lot of trouble and cost. I am very about the courting of Ukraine, and cannot believe the way that the EU (or Merkel) have played into Erdogan's hands.

I don't believe that the EU does anything for our security, and that there is a whole load of trouble coming down the track. No-one is saying that we won't help Europe if it is in trouble again, we are bound to do so as part of NATO, but we have to have the ability to make our own decisions.

Or perhaps they are more likely to be retired on a state pension and possibly a final salary pension scheme, have paid off their house or have a secure council tenancy so can place less weight on the economic arguments for staying.

You would probably be surprised to hear that the LEAVE campaign has many young active campaigners. One of our most active is a very politically aware 16 year old - too young to even vote in the referendum.

When you are 'old' you realise that economies grow and shrink. There are boom times and bust times - despite Gordon Brown's decree that they were abolished.

This referednum is about more than the economy - it's about the UK having the ability to make the laws that are best for the UK itself - and not accepting one-size-fits-all-28-members made by Brussels. When you have the abilit to make your own laws in your own country's interests then you can as a country, weather the economic storms a lot better than if you are at the mercy of laws made elsewhere.

I simply cannot understand why anyone thinks it is a good idea to hand someone else power over them.

You wouldn't do it in your personal life. You would probably think twice before you opened a joint account with anyone else, but yet some people are prepared to allow themselves to be ruled by Brussels forever, instead of a democratically UK Government they can vote in and vote out of office.

What happens when Brussels starts to make laws that the UK does like? Will will still slavishly implement them? If we refuse, what happens then? Will will be punished by the EU? What happens when the EU as the EU Army that Mr Junckers and Merkel is calling for?

It's supposed to be a trading bloc remember. It's supposed to be a common market.

It's not supposed to be making laws and dictating what we can and can't do in all aspects of our lives.

It's a bit flaming ironic the USA telling us we should remain, too. Many US States wouldn't (and indeed don't) accept Federal Legislation of a much milder flavour than some of the stuff that we get from the EU, it's just "do as we say, not as we do" again.

Good point wasonthelist I also doubt that even Obama would open his borders to Mexico and all of Central America.

All our borders are open to anyone from the EU.

Or anyone who can acquire an EU passport.

Was it Malta that was selling passports?

Malta, yes I think it was. Plus it's very easy to get hold of one on the black market anywhere in Europe.

If we vote leave Davis Cameron will be replaced as leader of the conservatives and we will have a general election this time next year. If you want rid of this government vote leave.

If we vote leave Davis Cameron will be replaced as leader of the conservatives and we will have a general election this time next year. If you want rid of this government vote leave.

That's a tempting thought all on its own.

David Cameron may well resign - he's said he's going before the next election anyway - but there'll only be a general election next year if his successor can't command a majority in the House of Commons. Whatever the result, it'll be interesting to see if Conservative MPs fall into line regardless of their personal views, or if there'll be a major split in the party. Wouldn't be the first time it's happened in the party over issues related to free trade

There are good arguments on both sides. There is also stupidity and astounding ignorance on both sides. I have researched as much as I can and threads like this are valuable for hearing other views.

Just a small point about over 55s - all my friends, family and acquaintances of that age group are working, some struggling, with teenaged kids, very aware of the economic arguments. None are "Let's make Britain Great again" - that is a silly stereotype.

I lived in two European countries, have worked in most of them, have German family. I love Europe. I and my parents travelled all over Europe pre EU - why would that change?

BUT - I will probably vote to leave. I have studied history and economics and have a degree in French and another, done later, in Law. I am not a Little Englander.

It concerns me that most of the new jobs that were created in the past few years went to EU non - Brits. Our unemployment figures are low - "Good for the Economy" - true - but not good for us.

Jobs are recruited for in E Europe - not even advertised here - with "guidance" on how to make up low wages with tax credits and housing benefit. That means our kids won't get the chance to even apply. That supply of cheap labour keeps wages down. So much for "employment rights"

I cannot go to Romania or Hungary or even Poland and get treated the same way. They won't recruit my son to work there, supply translators and free language lessons and pay him benefits to supplement his wages and treat him for free in the hospital. It is not true "free movement". It is mostly one way.

It is unsustainable. And when Turkey joins...

That is a tiny argument though. There are may more.

I think EU will fall apart. We are the first but we won't be the last.

Excellent post scaryteacher more eloquent than mine, (which is a bit of a rant, sorry.).

I too want to "get off the bus" as I don't like where it is going. A vote to remain is absolutely akin to getting on a bus with a mad driver.

I work with Russians - they were furious over the Ukraine issue. Not enemies we want to make.

blog.godreports.com/2015/09/how-islam-takes-over-countries/ This is worth a read. I had already made up my mind that I am definitely in t out camp before reading this. Once UK leaves the rest of the countries will follow. Living within the EU is nothing less than living within a dictatorship.

Oh and of course big business wants us to stay. Huge pool of cheap labour, growing number of consumers, low taxes.