The only way to get the EU to take the UK seriously is to vote to leave

[SpringingIntoAction]

Cameron tells us repeatedly that he wants to remain in a reformed EU.

Many others across the political divides also acknowledge the need for the EU to reform itself.

Some say that's why we need to remain in the EU - to change it from within.

I think the EU's refusal to engage with Cameron's plea for his EU reforms and the failure of his 'special deal' to achieve anything like the changes he originally said he wanted, show the EU is unwilling/incapable of reform.

I think the only way to get the EU to start taking our demands for reform seriously is to vote to leave.

They need to start imagining what the EU would be like without one of its largest funders - the UK. We do that by voting to leave.

weirdly I find the whole TTIP rather encouraging for EU democracy. It's the first time I can remember that people from all over Europe have gotten together to inflect an EU policy, and what do you know, we are actually seeing some success. If we could all be like this more often and actually take an active interest in EU politics, Brussels would be under the spotlight and would have to be more accountable. I firmly believe it's not just a question of institutions, it's also what we the European people do with these institutions. We have a democratic responsibility that we haven't really been fulfilling. If we actually voted in mass for the EU Parliament, for starters, it would have a lot more democratic legitimacy.

there have been opportunities to change to proportional representation and it hasn't happened.

The Lib Dems are in favour of PR so if they were part of another coalition government it could be brought to the fore again.

Also there is now an All Party Group in parliament pushing for PR.

Electoral reform: Labour, SNP, Ukip and Lib Dems to campaign for proportional representation Feb 2016

"Senior Labour backbenchers have begun talks with Liberal Democrat, Green and Ukip MPs to set up a new cross party campaign to bring about proportional representation (PR) in general elections."

If we actually voted in mass for the EU Parliament, for starters, it would have a lot more democratic legitimacy.

But you know that they don't do anything. They are they to provide a veneer of democracy.

So tell me more about how we can use our wonderfully democratic electoral system to get rid of the Tories when Boris Johnson, Michael Gove and Iain Duncan Smith are in charge and falling over themselves to sign up to "TTIP-on-steroids" with the USA.

This is going to be my stock standard response:

Understanding Democracy Fail

So to sum up. Buttered is a Spoilt little Princess who thinks it's unfair that her choice of politician doesn't get voted in because the majority of people who live in her area don't agree with her.

Wow.

Patronising, childish, insulting...

Clearly I am wasting my time trying to engage you in any kind of grown up debate. Back to the books. The Brexit camp are starting to make me think I don't want to live in this country any more whether we leave or stay in, so I need to focus on getting this master's degree under my belt and getting a decent job abroad.

The Brexit camp are starting to make me think I don't want to live in this country any more whether we leave or stay in, so I need to focus on getting this master's degree under my belt and getting a decent job abroad

Bonne chance and au revior.

MrSnow the EU can't do anything without the Parliament - it can't appoint a commission, it can't appoint a president, it can't pass any laws. Yes, there are limits to its power, that's true - but I'd say these are some pretty powerful tools, if used properly.

I think you should stick to words of no more than three syllables, MrSnow

Wow....patronising and insulting.

These Remainers are making me think they'd rather live in a totalitarian state with untold misery just because they don't get their own way.

Thanks for the best wishes.

Au revoir means "see you again" though, so I doubt it.

Au revoir means "see you again" though, so I doubt it

And yet here you are, already.

Nice to see the ad homs rolling from Mr snow, clearly demonstrating his loss of he argument.

Did anyone notice the LSE report today that backed my points that immigration doesn't cause unemployment of nationals and has minimal effect on wages.

Love being proved right time and time again.

Cheers brexiters!

I had a look at the LSE report lurked. Did you notice the disclaimer?

Disclaimer:

^The Centre for Economic Performance (CEP) is a
politically independent Research Centre at the London
School of Economics. The CEP has no institutional
views, only those of its individual researchers.
Professor John Van Reenen who joined the CEP as
Director in 2003, did not (and does not) support joining
the Euro.^

^CEP’s Brexit work is funded by the UK Economic and
Social Research Council. As a whole the CEP, receives
less than 5% of it’s funding from the European Union.
The EU funding is from the European Research Council
for academic projects and not for general funding or
consultancy.^

Italics fail...

I did notice, I'm sure they'll still call vested interest then link without a hint of irony to the mail or somehing.

"Did anyone notice the LSE report today that backed my points that immigration doesn't cause unemployment of nationals and has minimal effect on wages. "

Bless you sweetheart. Did you know there have also been reports which say "immigrants" don't draw benefits? Yet when you take a sneaky peak you see that by "benefits" they mean JSA. People living that life know that there's more to state handouts than JSA... just like people who are living a life where immigration threatens their jobs know that there are lies, lies and more damned statistics.

Aren't you the one on the EU gravy-train? I've found those in the "public" sector usually to be the last to know - they don't really do what I call critical thinking or research, they just regurgitate the official line. Sad really.

Um, and your peer reviewed evidence for this is where?

14% of EU immigrants get working tax credits, about 3% more than UK born. However they are under represented on the jsa claimant count.

The reason we have data, researched and backed is because people who just know allow their prejudices to taint their observations.

Can't believe you have the temerity to question my critical thinking and research when you come out with such dross.

just like people who are living a life where immigration threatens their jobs know that there are lies, lies and more damned statistics.

if you are only willing to engage with facts that confirm what you already believe, it's not much of a debate, is it?

the good thing about academic research is that it's all fully referenced for everyone to see. So that people can question the assumptions, methods and data used. That's how you dispute research and statistics, not with personal anecdotes.

that being said, no one is denying that things have been rough lately, it's the cause of the problems that is the question. To quote from the report:

we can confidently say that the empirical evidence shows that EU immigration has not had significantly negative effects on average employment, wages, inequality or public services at the local level for the UK-born. Nor, it should be said, are there large positive effects. Any adverse experiences of UK-born workers with regard to jobs and wages are more closely associated with the biggest economic crash for more than 80 years.

It also points out that as immigration rose prior to the crash so did wages.

The thing is as well is it reflects findings by the OUMO from a few years ago.

"Um, and your peer reviewed evidence for this is where? "

When you get a little wiser, more experienced with life and have more confidence in your abilities to gather evidence, analyse data and draw a conclusion - you will discover that you can form factual opinions without needing to ask "Sue" to check them over for you and agree as a rabble. It'll be the defining moment of your life when you learn to appraise the situation on its merit, make your own interpretation and draw conclusions rather than first seeking formal approval from others.

So EU immigration so far has been neither bad or good? Many people wouldn't agree - their personal experience tells them otherwise, they don't need to read reports to be told what to think.

What if the numbers rose from a couple of hundred thousand EU immigrants per year to a million, or five million, or ten million? Do the Remainers support no limit at all, ever?

I genuinely don't see the benefit of turning away top non-EU graduates (because they don't earn the £35K threshold) but allowing in any number from the EU - some are also top graduates, of course, but plenty are unskilled illiterates. Why not select for the skills the country needs?

Personal experience can be misleading because of the way we evaluate risks and dangers. There is lots of academic research in this field.

Imagine you apply for a job and you don't get an interview. You later find out an EU migrant got the job. You will make the link with immigration.

Later you get another better job. In fact this job was created out of the increased demand for services driven by local immigration. You won't make the link with immigration.

Only the negative link is made.

This is what is really worrying me, though. There's as close to an expert consensus as you're ever going to get against all the Brexit economic and immigration arguments, but it's not really making a dent in public opinion. People have been so used for so long to be told the opposite by irresponsible and demagogic media and politicians, now they truly believe it. And now that it's getting serious, the real facts are getting more press, but it's too little too late. They will stick to the narrative even when faced with overwhelming evidence.

theeedays that's interesting.

along the same line there's also a lot of research on why rational evidence doesn't change beliefs easily - see climate change, vaccination debate, etc