The only way to get the EU to take the UK seriously is to vote to leave

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Cameron tells us repeatedly that he wants to remain in a reformed EU.

Many others across the political divides also acknowledge the need for the EU to reform itself.

Some say that's why we need to remain in the EU - to change it from within.

I think the EU's refusal to engage with Cameron's plea for his EU reforms and the failure of his 'special deal' to achieve anything like the changes he originally said he wanted, show the EU is unwilling/incapable of reform.

I think the only way to get the EU to start taking our demands for reform seriously is to vote to leave.

They need to start imagining what the EU would be like without one of its largest funders - the UK. We do that by voting to leave.

I still think there's a mismatch between our best interests and the unfettered right of movement within the EU.

First I also think we'd be better off focusing on skilled immigration if we could because we would get more benefit that way.

The UK fail on housing (and travel infrastructure) means we do pay a price for each additional migrant so I think we need bang per buck. Skilled migrants could help us address these failures and give us a brighter future.

Any chance we can reform the EU to enable this?

Oops - *threedays

yes Chalalala.

Also see these threads...

Why not select for the skills the country needs?

Some shortage occupations are not particularly skilled - just unattractive. The experience of Georgia (the state not the country), which a few years ago cracked down on migrant workers and ended up leaving a good part of its tomato crop to rot in the fields, is instructive.

EU immigration has been neither bad nor good

What's certain is that the economy would be much smaller without it. I suppose it depends whether you think economic growth is good or not.

Frankly I think there's little to no chance of getting a special dispensation for free movement. It's too much of a cornerstone principle. I guess it's up to you to decide whether the whole package is still worth it.

Chalala - That's the debate I'd like to see here instead of the constant repetition.

You can't be in a single market and not have free movement. The whole point is that both capital and labour can move freely.

I think one of the UK's problems with free movement is that British people face unique barriers to getting jobs abroad, because of the appalling state of language education in the UK state school system.

I think the lack of incentive to learn other languages is more of a problem, Mistigri. People think there's no point learning other languages because everybody speaks English (but then complain when they're passed over for a job by someone like Chalalala, who speaks English as their second language and still manages to write better than most English people).

I went to an average state school, took one language to GCSE and another to A-level, then went to live in another country for a while. I'm now fluent in that language, although on paper I only have an A-level in it. I've also learned another language to roughly A-level standard through a combination of self study and private tuition, but have no qualification in it at all as yet.

It's not that hard if you're motivated.

I don't think language education is appalling. So many of the innovations in teaching started in mfl, it's recognised as the hardest faculty to work in. There does seem to be an inherent laziness abut languages in English speaking populations about it though, not all, but a significant majority.

For example.the three polish staff I know can speak and read English, Polish and French or German fluently. So much so that you see them reading novels in other languages. The massive English influence as the second language of so many countries makes it too easy.

Not a criticism though

I can't vouch for the other countries in the EU and the impact of immigration on them.

So I don't know how much of pressing, burning issue immigration was when countries like Norway accepted free movement.

For the UK its ripping us apart, its been a disaster. Of course if we leave there will be no free movement.

Unless we join the EEA, in which case there will be free movement. And you Brexiters have no guarantee that that won't happen.

It's not been a disaster. It's just been blamed for all ills by the press and political parties. It's gone on so long that when repeated research comes up with points people disregard it.

It's not been a disaster. It's just been blamed for all ills by the press and political parties

No, it has been a disaster. People living in these communities like Boston Lincs, don't need politicians to say anything to them, except apologise

Regarding languages, I do think that being a native English speaker gives a false sense of security. Being multilingual rarely gets you a job per se, but it can be the incremental difference between you and another applicant. (thanks for the compliment btw muffin, sadly the accent is here to stay :-p)

There's a dark, twisted part of me that actually wants to see what arrangement the post-Brexit Tories would come up with. I'm 99% sure that Boris is only in it for his own personal ambitions, and doesn't actually believe in the cause. So it'd be fascinating to watch what he does. (In a morbid, car crash sort of way.)

I don't think language education is appalling. So many of the innovations in teaching started in mfl, it's recognised as the hardest faculty to work in. There does seem to be an inherent laziness abut languages in English speaking populations about it though, not all, but a significant majority.

When I say "language education" I don't mean that language teachers are doing a poor job, but the GCSE isn't fit for purpose and the number of kids leaving school with a functional knowledge of a european language is tiny.

In contrast in France (not a country exactly known for its language expertise), all children study English for a minimum of 7 years and most also take a second MFL until age 18. It's not uncommon for bright students to do three MFL at the Bac, and most scientists and engineers will have a good functional knowledge of English plus some spanish or german. And let's not even start on the Dutch lol.

My (UK) employer would probably employ a French engineer or materials scientist who spoke good English and German, ahead of a British one speaking only English. In my department eight of us are bilingual (out of 13) but only two of the bilingual employees are British.

Speaking of Boston in Lincolnshire, last night's Newsnight Referendum Special on immigration was held in Boston, with members of the local community, including business owners, and experts on each side of the debate:

Newsnight 10 May 2016

If I could pick a Tory leader at the moment Liam Fox would be high on the list.

the GCSE isn't fit for purpose and the number of kids leaving school with a functional knowledge of a european language is tiny.

Agreed. The GCSE is designed to get kids through the exam, not to actually be able to speak the language in real life. And since the last Labour government made languages optional after age 14, most kids don't even do a GCSE any more.

There's a dark, twisted part of me that actually wants to see what arrangement the post-Brexit Tories would come up with. I'm 99% sure that Boris is only in it for his own personal ambitions, and doesn't actually believe in the cause. So it'd be fascinating to watch what he does. (In a morbid, car crash sort of way.)

I have a theory that Boris's primary concern is being popular. His political standpoint on various issues seems to be constantly shifting in line with public opinion. He has very few principles or convictions.

My guess is that if we vote for Brexit, he'll replace Cameron, and we'll briefly see him going, "Yay! Look at me, I'm Prime Minister!" (Like in the Green Party political broadcast, which you must watch if you haven't already seen it.)

Then the economic consequences of Brexit will start to become clear. All it will take is a couple of high profile firms pulling out of the UK, people losing their jobs and the pound crashing right before people's foreign holidays, and we'll have remain voters saying, "we told you this would happen!" and some leave voters saying, "we didn't realise this would happen, Nigel and Boris said we'd have a glorious future!" And public opinion will start to shift towards "oh crap, what have we done?" and Boris will say, "don't worry everybody, we can join the EEA and be like Norway!"

winter what a coincidence I didn't see it.

"And in a place like Boston there are many with direct experience of its costs as well as its benefits. Some of the most striking contributions tonight were from members of the panel and audience talking about the effect of high levels of immigration on NHS services, and wages".

These are the people who know what its like, they don't need to be told by politicians or read the DM to find out.

Osborne would be worse IMO

and some leave voters saying, "we didn't realise this would happen, Nigel and Boris said we'd have a glorious future!

I disagree. People I have spoken to who want to leave are passionate about it. They don't really care what Boris, or Cameron or Farage say, except that they would probably hope like me, something they say at some point clicks with someone on the fence.

People who want to leave have many reasons why, and they seem to feel very strongly about it. All the Leave camp could turn on its heel and say, " we made a mistake, lets stay", people who want to leave couldnt care less.

Well you can see why, when languages teacher battle kids day in day out, worst department for behaviour issues etc.

Again it goes back to the need to learn, if you're Polish, Dutch, Italian, and even German then English makes sense to learn, because its in pop music, movies the most popular TV shows etc. They get repeatedly told its the "international language of business" it provides impetus.

English kids just don't have the same motivation, not looking for excuses though.

Yeah, well, like Chalalala there is a small part of me which secretly wants to see what happens. It would be very interesting to see whether those people's convictions hold true if they are materially worse off after Brexit.

But I wouldn't wish that on all the remain voters who are desperately worried and don't have the kind of escape route I do.

If I could pick a Tory leader at the moment Liam Fox would be high on the list

No, too much baggage. But he is a good speaker. I am looking forward to hearing him and Boris speak the weekend.