The only way to get the EU to take the UK seriously is to vote to leave

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Cameron tells us repeatedly that he wants to remain in a reformed EU.

Many others across the political divides also acknowledge the need for the EU to reform itself.

Some say that's why we need to remain in the EU - to change it from within.

I think the EU's refusal to engage with Cameron's plea for his EU reforms and the failure of his 'special deal' to achieve anything like the changes he originally said he wanted, show the EU is unwilling/incapable of reform.

I think the only way to get the EU to start taking our demands for reform seriously is to vote to leave.

They need to start imagining what the EU would be like without one of its largest funders - the UK. We do that by voting to leave.

Winter - the Tories are doing everything in their power to make themselves permanent, including changing the electoral boundaries in their favour. Their percentage of parliamentary seats will go up substantially in the likely event that Scotland leaves the UK in order to stay in the EU. I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel, unless and until the Tories have stripped the nation of all removable assets and fled to the US.

Labour fuck up the economy. Tories get voted in and fix the Economy. Tories get voted out. Labour fuck up the economy. Tories get voted in fix the Economy.

etc.

Lol. Because the current lot of Tories are doing a really cracking job of fixing the economy, right?

It would really take a colossal fuck up from Labour to manage to cause the global financial meltdown of 2008, though...

Lol. Because the current lot of Tories are doing a really cracking job of fixing the economy, right?

The sole reason they didn't win the last election or get a hung parliment is that no one trusted them to run a tuck shop, never mind the nation's economy. Sorry, it's true.

I'm referring to Labour up there.

Ironically, in a financial crisis the last thing most people should be doing is voting for the Tories. They do it because of this perception that the Tories are more responsible with public money and can be trusted to get the economy back on track again. But in reality, the Tories just use it as an excuse to shrink the size of the public sector in the name of "austerity".

I do wonder about the kind of people who vote for the Tories "to get us out of this mess" and then start wibbling about "protecting the NHS". Can they really not see the connection?

Ironically, in a financial crisis the last thing most people should be doing is voting for the Tories. They do it because of this perception that the Tories are more responsible with public money and can be trusted to get the economy back on track again. But in reality, the Tories just use it as an excuse to shrink the size of the public sector in the name of "austerity"

No, it's the first thing they should do. Labour have NO record AT ALL of running a successful economy. Ever.

You heard what Brown did with our gold, yeah?

I'm more bothered about what the Tories are doing with our NHS, to be honest.

But you raise an important point. Thanks to FPTP we're stuck with a choice between "dumb" and "dumber", or "bad" and "worse", if you prefer.

Which is why the arguments that the EU is undemocratic don't hold any water.

Which is why the arguments that the EU is undemocratic don't hold any water

That's your opinion. It's a corrupt, undemocratic monstrosity, built by and for the elite. If you're down with that, that's cool with me, I'm not.

As for the NHS. My other half works on the front line, what Hunt is doing is a disgrace but at least my Mrs is brave enough to state the reason that a lot of departments are struggling is that there is just more people needing care than 10 years ago and she just doesn't mean the elderly.

It's a corrupt, undemocratic monstrosity, built by and for the elite. If you're down with that, that's cool with me, I'm not.

So is our national electoral system, only the decisions our government makes have a much bigger impact on our everyday lives than anything the EU does.

If you are concerned about democracy, you should be out there protesting, waving placards, signing petitions, writing to your MP and doing everything you can to demand electoral reform in this country.

If you're not doing that but you're complaining about there being a democratic deficit in the EU, you're a total hypocrite.

So is our national electoral system, only the decisions our government makes have a much bigger impact on our everyday lives than anything the EU does.

At the moment....

If you are concerned about democracy, you should be out there protesting, waving placards, signing petitions, writing to your MP and doing everything you can to demand electoral reform in this country.

I am satisfied with democracy in this country, it's not perfect but it shits all over the EU. I'm registering my displeasure at EU democracy by voting to leave the EU.

If you're not doing that but you're complaining about there being a democratic deficit in the EU, you're a total hypocrite

This is the line you trot out every time someone reminds you how democratically deficient the EU is and you start to have pangs of guilt, isn't it? it's a load of rubbish.

Tell you what, you're obviously a labour supporter, that's fine with me, but any true labour supporter voting to remain as part of the EU is more than just a hypocrite it's bordering on traiterous to the socialist cause.

All the EU is designed for is to give corporations a long, almost endless supply of cheap labour. Why do you think it has it's eyes set on expansion? More cheap labour, obviously.

Oh, and the reason I'm satisfied with democracy in this country is that the governments do get changed, they do get voted out.

This will never happen with the EU government. It will be virtually a one party state with no hope of ever, ever get it removed. Unless by force.

Do you really want that?

I'm not a Labour supporter. But it doesn't make any difference which party I support. The only elections in which my vote makes a difference are the European ones. So by voting for Brexit, you're actually voting to completely disenfranchise me and anybody else with the misfortune to live in a safe seat or support any party other than one of the main two.

How's that for democracy?

If you're not doing that but you're complaining about there being a democratic deficit in the EU, you're a total hypocrite

This x 10 lol, these rabid it undemocratic brexiters were all quiet when we had a chance to change FPTP.

There are cross party problems with too much invested in the city which is a problem in the UK. Sorting out tax evasion and avoidance in the UK would make a massive difference to the governments coffers.

Why in austerity this seemed so low down the list of options behind giving rich people tax breaks and reducing disabled peoples money I could never ever ever ever imagine, so here I am with no party to vote for, where we are in a real position
where we can let them do even more.

How's that for democracy?

That's how democracy works, the majority of like minded people make the decision. If you don't like what happens in your seat, you should wave placards, start petitions and try to change people's minds.

You could even go into for a local politics job yourself and try and promote your party's cause.

You're going to be voting to voluntarily become a worker in a totalitarian state, you do realise this, yeah?

"This x 10 lol, these rabid it undemocratic brexiters were all quiet when we had a chance to change FPTP.*

I joined a protest in Cardiff and signed several petitions.

Are you that stupid to think that democracy means everyone gets everything they ask for and if they don't it's not democratic?

You're really not getting it, are you?

I live in a constituency full of rich people and old people. My MP, Jeremy Hunt, has a majority of over 30,000, despite being one of the most unpopular politicians currently in office. Before him, the seat was held by Virginia Bottomley, one of his cousins, since the constituency was created in 1982. It is never going to be held by any other party.

The European Parliament elections are the only opportunity I have to make my voice heard - the only time it is even worth me voting. And you want to take that away from me (and millions of other people like me) in the name of "democracy".

You Brexiters don't have a monopoly on deciding what is and isn't democratic.

If you're happy with FPTP because you vote for the Tories or Labour and your seat usually (or sometimes) goes the way you want it to, good for you. But many of us are better represented in the European Parliament than we are in the House of Commons.

You're really not getting it, are you?

No, I get it fine. You don't get what you want and you stamp your feet and call it "undemocratic"

But many of us are better represented in the European Parliament

The European parliament doesn't actually do anything, it's one and only purpose is to provide a veneer of democracy to the EU establishment.

So, because you're in a huff because the area you live in votes a certain way because that's what the majority of people there want you want to ruin what little democracy there is left.

It's all about you.

ut many of us are better represented in the European Parliament than we are in the House of Commons.

YES!

You're going to be voting to voluntarily become a worker in a totalitarian state Yes I agree though it is a given in a BREXIT unshackled conservative state.

No, I get it fine. You don't get what you want and you stamp your feet and call it "undemocratic".

No, this is what Team Brexit are doing when they're up in arms about the UK not getting its way 55 times in 20 years (or whatever the exact figure is).

Yes I agree though it is a given in a BREXIT unshackled conservative state

As previously mentioned. We still retain the power to change the UK government should the majority of the people see fit.

This will never happen under an EU Government, is that what you want? Just to spite the tories?

You can lobby your MP even if you didn't vote for them.

In what way can your MEP make a difference if it's the commission who propose legislation and it's the lobbying for big companies that they listen to most?

No, this is what Team Brexit are doing when they're up in arms about the UK not getting its way 55 times in 20 years (or whatever the exact figure is)

No they aren't. They know what's going to happen should we have an "ever closer political union"

We will never be able to change it, it will be Orwellian.

Tell me, do you even register this possibility?

these rabid it undemocratic brexiters were all quiet when we had a chance to change FPTP.

Proportional representation wasn't on offer, just the Alternative Vote. Even so, 32 per cent of people voted for the A.V.