The only way to get the EU to take the UK seriously is to vote to leave

[SpringingIntoAction]

Cameron tells us repeatedly that he wants to remain in a reformed EU.

Many others across the political divides also acknowledge the need for the EU to reform itself.

Some say that's why we need to remain in the EU - to change it from within.

I think the EU's refusal to engage with Cameron's plea for his EU reforms and the failure of his 'special deal' to achieve anything like the changes he originally said he wanted, show the EU is unwilling/incapable of reform.

I think the only way to get the EU to start taking our demands for reform seriously is to vote to leave.

They need to start imagining what the EU would be like without one of its largest funders - the UK. We do that by voting to leave.

Are you seriously saying the EU won't sign up to TITP?

This is the latest rumour from the REMAIN side - TTIP is dead, so those worrying about the effect of TTIP on the NHS will have no reason to vote LEAVE.

Cameron could even exempt the NHS from TTIP - he'll probably do that the week before the referendum, then we'll have to decide whether we actually trust him to deliver. I thought about that for a nano-second - No, I don't trust him.

Last time I looked, Arron Banks wasn't the Minister for Health,so want he wants/doesn't want is actually immaterial.

I think that if leave win it might not necessarily mean we actually leave just that we can renegotiate a lot more to get better deals and have more say.

If you believe the NHS will survive any form of TTIP then you might aswell believe Father Christmas. My argument, for about the fith time, is that TTIP affecting the NHS is not a BREXIT only scenario.

Take a look at the 2012 health and social care act.

Also do you know who didn't want to include the caveat about state health care in ttip? The one that the French and tell Germans did?

But of course it's an easy point to make, if you are trying to scare those who aren't as informed. Smoke and mirrors yet again.

"Cameron could even exempt the NHS from TTIP"

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

I don't get this. Seems reasonable to me :s

ButteredMuffin thank you for reminding me about the DM headline generator! Just wasted a happy minutes 😄 ("Is Swine Flu Taxing YOUR Mortgage?")

Ttip and ceta involve "carve out" points which allow governments to rule, choose providers of services and protect Satterleigh owned operations.

The biggest isds thigh you all hang your hat on is Phillip morris vs Australia, which Philip morris lost.

The Tories have already passed legislation to privatise the NHS. Do you understand that?

^^ That's excuse No 2 for "Why its safe to vote REMAIN and get TTIP"

Which of course if nonsense because if the NHS had already been privatised we wouldn't have UNITE, 38 Degrees, One in a Million and all those other organisations still campaigning against TTIP - because they fear it will privitise the NHS.

Vote LEAVE - escape TTIP - save the NHS.

State owned operations. Sorry

But it's patently obvious that there is a much better chance of the NHS surviving any deal if we stay in the EU. It's blindingly obvious

Consistency failure

You said it had already been privatised.

I am sure the private companies that currently own the NHS will safeguard its future as its the same big companies that want you to stay in the EU.

Blindingly obvious? I think you are going well over the top with that optimism. We can hope it would be better off but its certainly not blindingly obvious, I'm sorry.

In all honesty the NHS is done for anyway, its just a matter of which Government watch the final nail in the coffin occurs on. It would probably suit both Labour and Tories if it happens under the guise of TTIP.

Er, don't you realise that it was Cameron than signed the whole deal to privatise the NHS in the first place?

Wrong

Bodybags Burnham privatised more than Cameron and Clegg managed.

Argument fail. We can leave the EU to protect the NHS, but the NHS already has private owners so that's bad too.

Your big company argument? What do you think would happen without EU competition laws? Good example of that in the news today.

In all honesty the NHS is done for anyway, its just a matter of which Government watch the final nail in the coffin occurs on. It would probably suit both Labour and Tories if it happens under the guise of TTIP

It could suit Labour to recommend voting REMAIN knowing TTIP will kill off the NHS, so it can blame it on the Tories - Tories lose support over that and Labour bounces back into power

And do what re nationalise?

Because someone said BREXIT would lead to the end of the NHS. I was just pointing out that staying in the EU would not save the NHS.

The New Statesman no less!

www.newstatesman.com/politics/2015/01/labour-cant-escape-its-blairite-past-nhs-so-it-should-stop-crying-privatisation