The only way to get the EU to take the UK seriously is to vote to leave

[SpringingIntoAction]

Cameron tells us repeatedly that he wants to remain in a reformed EU.

Many others across the political divides also acknowledge the need for the EU to reform itself.

Some say that's why we need to remain in the EU - to change it from within.

I think the EU's refusal to engage with Cameron's plea for his EU reforms and the failure of his 'special deal' to achieve anything like the changes he originally said he wanted, show the EU is unwilling/incapable of reform.

I think the only way to get the EU to start taking our demands for reform seriously is to vote to leave.

They need to start imagining what the EU would be like without one of its largest funders - the UK. We do that by voting to leave.

Just shows that Cameron is not responsible for all the ills in the world.

Hard to accept - but it's true.

GPs have always been private companies anyway. Try getting them to give you a note for your insurance company confirming you were too ill to travel. £25.

Ok hover and lurked. You've convinced me to vote remain!

Trade Unionists Against the EU

"The government’s determination to introduce new, unsafe NHS doctors’ contracts and its attempts weaken the health unions, result from its commitment to the European Union (EU) and the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP). Yes Jeremy Hunt and the Tories are nasty, but they are puppets in a bigger, more dangerous game."

"The corporate takeover of Britain has almost become complete" ... "However, there are still considerable parts of the public sector remaining, schools, local authorities, government departments, even the Ordnance Survey, the BBC and above all the National Health Service (NHS). The direction of travel of the EU is to now to try and transfer these remaining public assets into private hands, notably those of the US. In order to achieve this, its highly secretive negotiations of a range of trade deals, which are in fact arrangements to privatise, deregulate and give corporations more power than governments, pose the biggest threat ever to our NHS."

"Some say the EU can be reformed and that although TTIP is way beyond the pale, we must stay in the EU in order to reform it. This is quite wrong. The underlying neoliberal Treaties of the EU can only be changed by simultaneous agreement by the 28 member states, most of whom, like the toothless EU Parliament itself, are dominated by the right."

Whisky2014 if this is not some sort of cruel joke, then I think it's the first time in all my weeks lurking around the EU referendum threads that I've actually seen someone change their mind

Argh I am battling with myself. My heart says Leave, my head says Stay.
I'm an emotional kind of person and I tend to choose on a whim!
I think it's safer to choose remain but believe change is good.

I chose leave based on TTIP and I am just not a fan of the EU.
But there's also the risk is just not knowing what will happen.

I get it - I've often had the same heart/head debate before elections, and to be honest I usually tend to go with emotions and hope vs dull reasonableness too.

of course in this case my heart an head are saying the same thing, so as far as I'm concerned it's a no-brainer

Whisky Watch Brexit The Movie. I didn't know that the 'officials' have their own shopping mall, hairdressers, supermarkets and all the rest of it. This is communist Russia. A swollen bureaucratic class with special privileges, which ordinary people can't access. I am truly shocked by this. What on earth is all that about?

IMO we need to do what is right, not what is promoted as "safe" or "not rocking the boat". Traditionally British people have been strong, courageous and independent. I don't want to see this eroded further and would like Britain to leave the EU.

Well, yes WInter I think that too BUT I also want our economy to thrive. Will it if we are on our own?

I don't think that shafting the ordinary people in our country, many of whom are still really struggling in this ongoing recession, even to the extent of using foodbanks for God's sake, is responsible. Keep your principles for your own personal life decisions, that affect only you and your family.

Whisky Seriously, watch the Brexit movie vimeo.com/166378572. It's excellent.

People need to stop being so partisan career politicians in labour and conservative parties have been laughable in getting good deals from the private sector so would love to know whose going to get these Brexit deals.

news.sky.com/story/1695244/chelsea-clinton-husbands-hedge-fund-to-shut

Goldman's, Greece, Clinton, EU... Oops, here we go again.

Sorry fourmummy, I don't quite see your point here? Clinton is close to Wall Street, not news, and not exactly related to Brexit either that I can see

Is it because the hedge fund of Clinton's son-in-law bought some of Greece's debt? How do you think being outside of the EU would help Greece's debt not be bought off by people like that?

Routenationale the EU is controlled by those with money, including the big businesses which constantly lobby the EU to sway it towards supporting them, not small or medium businesses, or entrepeneurs.

The far right are on the rise in the EU as so many people are discontented with it. We may well swing back to a Labour government in this country while at the same time the EU gets increasingly right-wing.

The EU's plans wants to distance those in power from ordinary people so that we don't bother the elite. They want to privatise all our public services (money again), gradually and irreversibly superceding the laws of its members, and becoming a superstate. How is a private healthcare system going to be any use to the poor?

My income is low and I'm in favour of leaving the EU. Working class people are more likely to support Brexit, but some people are still arguing that they shouldn't do it because it "won't be good for them". Having a low income and/or being working class doesn't remove anyone's ability to weigh up the arguments and think for themselves! Labour should be supporting their traditional voters, not champagne socialists.

If we leave the EU, Britain will be able to spend its own money as we see fit via our elected government (which may well change at our next general election). We won't have to give millions each week to the EU and get some of it back as pocket money for purposes designated by the EU. It will be more possible to support our NHS, Education and other public services, and of course to help the poorer in our country. Reducing the burdens of unlimited immigration may also help, so that we can allow genuine refugees but also workers with the skills and professions that this country needs, on an equal basis from round the world, to come here.

Whatever happens in the short term, I believe the economy is likely to do much better independently of the EU in the long term. This is a long term decision and we need to take the long-term view for everyone's future.

Breaking DAD - watch the movie, preferably in full, but otherwise from around 50mins, where they discuss the success of Switzerland...it is a real eye opener. Then it goes on the talk about trade deals - I found it very interesting.

Agree with your point about crappy negotiators in all political parties. However, one step at a time.....

The far right are on the rise in the EU as so many people are discontented with it. We may well swing back to a Labour government in this country while at the same time the EU gets increasingly right-wing.

I don't quite get this argument, because the Brexit movement is the British manifestation of this rise of the nationalistic right in Europe.

I just read the current Front National manifesto as far as it relates to the EU and immigration, and it's word for word the same complaints and arguments as I've been reading on these threads.

(well, word for word, except that they complain that France doesn't get the same EU discount as the UK and is the country paying most of the bill for the UK's preferential treatment... but really that's just an inverted mirror of the Brexit arguments)

because the Brexit movement is the British manifestation of this rise of the nationalistic right in Europe.

No, it isn't - it really isn't all about Farage and co! There are many left-wing reasons to leave the EU, and right-wing reasons to stay. That's why it's a cross-party debate with representatives from the main parties on both sides.

well, in theory maybe Winterbiscuit, but the left-wing arguments are being drowned in a sea of concerns about immigration, loss of identity and sovereignty, which are traditionally more right-wing concerns. I'll also point out that the Front National is equally busy courting working-class voters in France, using the exact same flawed arguments about unemployment, wages, multinationals, and privatisation of public services. Honestly, I'm struggling to find any significant difference with the mainstream Brexit discourse on these topics.

because the Brexit movement is the British manifestation of this rise of the nationalistic right in Europe.

I agree with Winterbiscuit. I don't see it this way ^at all. I don't think people woke up one day and thought, "Yes, I am^ a racist/nationalistic".

I don't think people woke up one day and thought, "Yes, I am a racist/nationalistic^

I think only a tiny minority of FN voters would identify with these statements.

They are just regular, mostly working-class people, angry at not having jobs or having poorly paid jobs. And the FN provides them with people to blame and easy solutions.

They are just regular, mostly working-class people, angry at not having jobs or having poorly paid jobs. And the FN provides them with people to blame and easy solutions But I think that's the whole point. You can't tell these groups that adding more people in the form of immigration, reducing their access to public services and jobs, having weird, incomprehensible laws, having Goldman's spread its tentacles into every sphere (exaggeration, but still...) which everyone in the EU and across the pond seems to be linked to in some way (exaggeration again, but still...) is sensible. Honestly, I don't see blame. I see logical responses to illogical , incomprehensible situations.