The only way to get the EU to take the UK seriously is to vote to leave

[SpringingIntoAction]

Cameron tells us repeatedly that he wants to remain in a reformed EU.

Many others across the political divides also acknowledge the need for the EU to reform itself.

Some say that's why we need to remain in the EU - to change it from within.

I think the EU's refusal to engage with Cameron's plea for his EU reforms and the failure of his 'special deal' to achieve anything like the changes he originally said he wanted, show the EU is unwilling/incapable of reform.

I think the only way to get the EU to start taking our demands for reform seriously is to vote to leave.

They need to start imagining what the EU would be like without one of its largest funders - the UK. We do that by voting to leave.

And if TTIP is your concern (I think fears are overdone personally and I'm well to the left of most of you) then your best defence is solidarité with the French left, who will veto it in its current form. Boris and Nige OTOH would sign up eyes closed.

But Springing, you of all people should see that the EU is not just an economic organisation, it's something France and Germany actually believe in

You mean the current Politicians in Power believe in.

It can't be our cheap work force because they could get workers for 82p an hour in Bulgaria

Very true and If you look at places like Pinewood, its the quality of the crews that attract production companies. ( as wel as other things but quality of staff is key)

That was actually a decent summary until this bit - no one has said the US would "impose" something like TTIP to Britain. They wouldn't need to, because the Tories would welcome it with open arms. They've been the biggest TTIP cheerleaders in the EU negotiations. In fact in his big speech a few days ago Boris complained that the TTIP negotiations were taking too long!

I forgot the bit where Obama said that a new TTIP deal with the UK was not going to happen for at least 10 years because he said we were "at the back of the queue".
Straight from the US President's mouth - leave the EU, no UK/US TTIP within 20 years.

By which time Cameron and Boris will be long gone.

So are we going to negotiate a new trade agreement with the US or not? I thought the Brexit camp were adamant that we would get one, and that Obama's comments don't matter because he's only got another 6 months left in office.

Look how it grows, bulges, expands and oozes its power over the EU countries, reaching its sticky tentacles into our very seats of democracy.

that was very poetic, I like it

then your best defence is solidarité with the French left, who will veto it in its current form. Boris and Nige OTOH would sign up eyes closed.

by "French left", surely you don't mean the current government?

but yes, you're right. France and Germany are the best hope to protect Britain from the worst bits of TTIP.

But Springing, you of all people should see that the EU is not just an economic organisation, it's something France and Germany actually believe in.

I know it's just masquerading as a trade organisation - that's why I am opposed to it. 53% of French want their own referendum and I doubt that most want it to reaffirm their belief in the EU

The current French government is desperate to placate its bolshy left wing chalalala ... vetoing TTIP would be a fairly low risk way of doing that.

Oh good, it's been a while since someone plucked some made up statistics out of their arse, I was starting to worry.

The current French government is desperate to placate its bolshy left wing chalalala ... vetoing TTIP would be a fairly low risk way of doing that.

You see this is one of the main problems with the EU - national interest. Just supposing TTIP had been a wonderful deal for the UK, then we could find that something that benefitted us and was in the UK's national interest was vetoed by a foreign country.

One size (trade deal, currency, interest rate - whatever) does not and cannot suit 28 diverse nations with diverse economies, interest and goals.

let me rephrase to "the French and German political elites" then, which in this case amounts to the same thing.

53% of French want their own referendum

you forget to say that this very same poll found that only 33% of French people wanted to leave the EU... and they're one of the most eurosceptic countries in the EU.

From the Business Reporter website today:

George Osborne reveals ‘contingency planning’ on Brexit impact

"The Treasury is doing "quite a serious amount of contingency planning" into how Britain would deal with leaving the EU, George Osborne said - despite previous claims the Government was not preparing for Brexit."

"The Treasury is doing "quite a serious amount of contingency planning" into how Britain would deal with leaving the EU, George Osborne said - despite previous claims the Government was not preparing for Brexit."

That news crept out about 10 days ago - I think it was a Sunday Times journalist who first said it on a politics programme and then the whole thing went dead.

I do hope he is ordering in miles of bunting and celebration cakes.

Is it a surprise? Surely it'd be quite irresponsible not to

Is it a surprise? Surely it'd be quite irresponsible not to

It a presentational issue - the Govt did not want to admit that a Brexit was possible so said it had no planning for one. However, with the polls neck and neck that initial confidence could be construed as negligence, not to have actively prepared for such an event.

I bet they are having fun war-gaming a Brexit scenarion

I do hope he is ordering in miles of bunting and celebration cakes

One size (trade deal, currency, interest rate - whatever) does not and cannot suit 28 diverse nations with diverse economies, interest and goals

No it can't. The countries within the zone are very very different with different needs. Look at the Eastern Block.

It a presentational issue

then maybe they're just pretending to plan, and will in fact drop a big file full of confetti on Boris's desk on 24 June...

I bet there's no love lost between them these days.

Part of me secretly does want to watch Boris actually having to deal with Brexit.

Good point, If this referendum was being held a decade or more ago, I would agree its a huge risk.

Too many factors are putting the EU under enormous pressure without Brexit on top. So this current climate, no I don't think it would

I disagree - the national political interests for the governing parties in Germany and France will probably overrule any wobbles from Brussels. Both have elections coming up, both are facing strong challenges from anti-EU parties. It's in their interests to make leaving the EU look painful and messy to their own populations.

Does anyone have a recipe for a Brexit cake?

Take two springs and dice, mix with a bit of chalala in a hovercraft full of eels, and serve with a buttered muffin?

Take two springs and dice, mix with a bit of chalala in a hovercraft full of eels, and serve with a buttered muffin?

On a Winterbiscuit base with a Lime(r) sauce.

And serve with a spoon AnnaFork(Es).