The only way to get the EU to take the UK seriously is to vote to leave

[SpringingIntoAction]

Cameron tells us repeatedly that he wants to remain in a reformed EU.

Many others across the political divides also acknowledge the need for the EU to reform itself.

Some say that's why we need to remain in the EU - to change it from within.

I think the EU's refusal to engage with Cameron's plea for his EU reforms and the failure of his 'special deal' to achieve anything like the changes he originally said he wanted, show the EU is unwilling/incapable of reform.

I think the only way to get the EU to start taking our demands for reform seriously is to vote to leave.

They need to start imagining what the EU would be like without one of its largest funders - the UK. We do that by voting to leave.

Enough to feed #teamlurked?

Sounds fantastic, thank you! Yes, plenty for all

Enough to feed #teamlurked?

This is a Brexit cake. Teamlurked will be eating humble pie.

Doubt it.

In the event of Brexit, butteredmuffin will be over on the continent, enjoying much better cuisine.

It's in their interests to make leaving the EU look painful and messy to their own populations.

Yes, this.

I find it amazing that many in the leave camp are prepared to predict other countries' reactions, from a position of complete ignorance of their national politics. I'm less familiar with German politics, but I think we can expect very little goodwill from French and Belgian politicians.

Even Front National politicians, while sharing many of the aims of UKIP and the Eurosceptic Tories, will primarily see a Brexit as a domestic political opportunity. I expect them to make hay over the Calais issue, as they have a strong political base in the Nord-Pas de Calais, and many of their supporters are in favour of moving the border moved to Dover.

Basically, expect cheap and damaging political point scoring on both sides.

Nice to see the ad homs rolling from Mr snow, clearly demonstrating his loss of he argument.

Hardly..........

polls always to be taken with a grain of salt, but I went back to look at the poll Springing cited early, and here are a few interesting findings about European perceptions of Brexit:

only 40% of French and 48% of Germans think that UK membership is a good thing for the EU, yet they want the UK to stay in (56% and 73% respectively)

2/3 of French and German think that Brexit would have little to no effect on their daily life.

56% of Germans and 27% of French think Brexit would be bad for Britain's economy (interesting disparity here)

German and French think that UK membership is more advantageous to Britain than it is to the EU (by 11 points different and 5 points difference respectively)

Only 24% of French and 25% of Germans think Britain should be given exemptions or special deals to entice it to stay in the EU (consensus all over Europe here: 30% in Spain, 30% in Poland, 26% in Ireland, 25% in Sweden)

Less than 25% in France, Germany, Sweden, Ireland, Spain, Poland want freedom of movement to be limited in the EU. Only 16% in Germany.

More (relative) support for limiting access to benefits: 53% in France, 46% in Germany

France is the only polled country to want another referendum, at 53% (but only 33% would actually vote Leave)

ugh sorry about the typos, and findings here

www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2016/03/12/une-majorite-de-francais-souhaite-un-referendum-sur-le-frexit-la-sortie-de-la-france-de-l-ue_4881768_3214.html

Has anyone here touched on the EU's blatant disregard for ignoring what countries think when it comes to referendums and democracy?

EU Constitution author says referendums can be ignored
Future referendums will be ignored whether they are held in Ireland or elsewhere, Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, the architect of the European Union Constitution said

So far they've said "niet comrades" to the Irish treaty vote and made them vote again, and ignored Dutch, Greek and French referendums.

What an organisation.

So far they've said "niet comrades" to the Irish treaty vote and made them vote again, and ignored Dutch, Greek and French referendums.

and who's "they" exactly?

I don't know about the other countries, but in France it's our own democratically elected national politicians who decided to bypass the referendum, and took the vote to our (again) democratically elected parliament instead. Not some evil nameless EU apparatchik.

I don't know about the other countries, but in France it's our own democratically elected national politicians who decided to bypass the referendum, and took the vote to our (again) democratically elected parliament instead

I'm talking about the 2005 vote where you rejected the EU asking to replace treaties with a constitution and then ended having to amend your own constitution, yeah?

I'm talking about the 2005 vote where you rejected the EU asking to replace treaties with a constitution and then ended having to amend your own constitution, yeah?

Yes, that's right.

The French rejected the constitution in 2005 (combination of anti-capitalist leftwing opposition, and nationalistic rightwing opposition).

One of Sarkozy's pledges during the presidential campaign in 2007 was to renegotiate a smaller revised treaty and then ratify it without a referendum. Once elected, he duly went on to promote the Lisbon Treaty, which was then ratified by our Parliament.

I don't think anyone covered themselves up in glory here, but it was hardly an undemocratic EU imposition on the French people. We voted for it. Then our elected national officials implemented it.

(by "we voted for it", I don't mean in the referendum obviously, I mean "we voted for a politician who had explicitly promised to ratify a revised treaty without a referendum", and "we voted for the parliamentaries who then ratified it".)

If we want to "save the NHS" we need to move towards an insurance based system - like almost all other EU countries. Those settled and working in UK would be entitled to use it as would students, the elderly and UK citizens who are unemployed and seeking work.
The current, unpoliced, residence based system encourages health tourism and allows those who have never contributed to the system, and probably never will, to receive the same benefits as those club members who have paid their dues. It is also another perverse incentive for people with serious medical problems and no money to resettle in UK.
The problem is that the NHS has become such a sacred cow that no-one can suggest a sensible reform without being accused of trying to destroy it.

I don't think anyone covered themselves up in glory here, but it was hardly an undemocratic EU imposition on the French people. We voted for it. Then our elected national officials implemented it

You had to change your own constitution to make way for the EU after voting against them.

There were significant differences between the EU Constitution rejected by France and the Netherlands and the Lisbon Treaty which replaced it. So saying the French and Dutch votes were ignored is wrong.

If we want to "save the NHS" we need to move towards an insurance based system - like almost all other EU countries

My mate is dying of skin cancer, he's been in treatment for a year now. Without the endless treatments he'd already be dead.

I doubt he'd be able to afford the insurance to pay for all those treatments.

If we want to save the NHS we have to concentrate on giving better care to elderly patients with Alzheimers, etc, 40% of beds are taken up by those poor people who could be in a care home.

There were significant differences between the EU Constitution rejected by France and the Netherlands and the Lisbon Treaty which replaced it. So saying the French and Dutch votes were ignored is wrong.

No it's utterly right in saying they were ignored.

You had to change your own constitution

It's your use of "had to" that I object to. You make it sound like the Commission President came down from Brussels to hold a gun to our heads. That's not what happened. Our democratically elected representatives voted to change the constitution (which requires a majority of 2/3). Then the Lisbon Treaty was approved by our democratically elected Parliament by 560 votes against 181.

How is this an undemocratic imposition by the EU? If anything, critize the French political system and our nationally elected representatives. But this was not the EU's fault.

If anything, critize the French political system and our nationally elected representatives. But this was not the EU's fault

The French political system was told what to do by the EU. This is undeniable.

It's absolutely deniable.

Do you have any evidence for this claim? What do you think "the EU" did to force French representatives to vote against their will?

The entire French political class (save for extreme right and left fringes) had campaigned in favour of the Constitution, across all the mainstream parties. It's hardly surprising they were also in favour of the less comprehensive Lisbon Treaty.

Springing if UK governments (cross party i'm talking here) had had some experience of getting good deals I could give you a little leeway, but wether it was conservative privatisation of rail utilities, sell offs, labour PFI's. G4S olympics, Royal Mail, China building a massively overpriced nuclear reactor etc they were all unmitigated screw ups.

This is why I have no confidence in the ability to get all these 'deals' donw without them just panic signing whatevers being offered.

On seperated note I dont see how people think they can police employers post brexit, they will always go for the lowest common denominator. This is a UK employers problem where for decades now we have eroded, training apprenticeships and developing staff in general. Just hoping the market will make up the shortfall.

So again, all I can see is you will get is industry lobbying the same Tories and Nu-labour types saying we need more visas.....

If we want to "save the NHS" we need to move towards an insurance based system

The NHS has better buying power and leverage and is non profit making, private systems would take some money off the national budget, but it would be less efficient and cost more as a whole. this could be offset by actually trying to chase tax avoidance and evasion but Tories and Nu-Labour are against that.

@MrSnow: You make these blanket assertions on the basis of no evidence.

France and the Netherlands rejected the EU Constitution. The EU Constitution was binned. France and the Netherlands and all other EU countries approved the Lisbon Treaty. The Lisbon Treaty was adopted.

These are facts.