How will you vote in the EU referendum-Leave or Stay?

[BritBrit]

How will you be voting? Can admin add a poll?

Of course there are vested interests, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are negative. Also stating this for every opinion or piece of research that contradicts your opinion is poor.

The evidence for is far more convincing than the evidence against, for one reason alone that so many different organisations with far different objectives have backed remain.

When you come here with something other than Daniel Hannan and the Daily Mail, whom it have been convincingly proved to misuse the information presented. Maybe you will convince people further.

There are 12 net contributors, some are small, but then many of thone in net deficit are also so in very small amounts.

Again the emotive language with the begging bowl stuff. You realise this is he flaw? Well that and your misuse of the data, but we've covered that before.

Of course there are vested interests, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are negative.

Goldman Sachs is not Robin Hood, Lurked.

Also stating this for every opinion or piece of research that contradicts your opinion is poor.

The tentacles of the EU reach far into academia. Whenever i see one of your links to 'research' I also do some research. I invariably find it comes from some Policy Unit or Research Unit that is relatively recently established and receives £millions from the EU. He who pays the piper .......

The evidence for is far more convincing than the evidence against,

Because the Eu funds more evidence - it funds whole academic departments producing stuff to say how wonderful it is - money, or rather OUR money that could be better spent on scientific and medical reseach than 'blowing the EU's own trumpet' research.

for one reason alone that so many different organisations with far different objectives have backed remain.

Lurked, they all have the same vested interest - More Money and the EU is the cash cow and they suckle at its teat. Even the BBC has just been given another £2million from the EU recently.

When you come here with something other than Daniel Hannan and the Daily Mail, whom it have been convincingly proved to misuse the information presented.

Dan is living the dream Lurked. he wants you to make him redundant. he's really looking forward to it. I'm inclined to believe someone who is part of the EU organisation and who is brave enough o describe its flaws and failures that those who would rather glorify it at arms length.

Daily Mail is a source and is just as valid as the Guardian that only presents the pro-EU Leftist view of life and actively ignores anything that may contradict its socialist utopian dream of the EU.

Maybe you will convince people further.

Doing just fine without having to pay researchers to big up the EU. People have eyes and ears and they can see for themselves what's going on and how it's affecting them - and they don't like it.

There are 12 net contributors, some are small, but then many of thone in net deficit are also so in very small amounts

SO WHAT?

It doesn't change matters. People need to take their head out of the weeds - stop bickering over the trivia and start addressing the fact that we are being governed by a power-hungry EU.

Guess what - I would pay £350 million a year not to be in the EU.

That's how little the contributions matter in the big picture of things.

For once, it's not about the money. What price freedom.

So you think the BBC taints its reporting due to EU funding?

You realise that £2 million is about 0.05 % of its budget?

This is the problem you keep screaming about the research being funded from organisations that don't get the majority of their funding from the EU and studies that are not directly funded by the EU.

Goldman Sachs isn't Robin Hood but neither are the hedge funds that are funding the Brexit campaign so they can avoid increased regulation.

Daniel Hannan is yet another who willfully misuses data, and it makes him far less credible than you think, do you think he doesn't stand to benefit positions on boards of hedge funds in the future?

Goldman are ONE organisation backing remain, there are many, many others, all with very different objectives. But every single one you just shout "vested interest" and that is all you can come up with, that and shouting project fear.

Quite comical really.

So you think the BBC taints its reporting due to EU funding?

Of course. Even John Humphrys said the coverage had been less than even-handed.

You realise that £2 million is about 0.05 % of its budget?

There you again - head down in the weeds. If I killed 3 people would you say never mind, it's only 0.00000 of the UK population? It's not the money -it's the principle.

This is the problem you keep screaming about the research being funded from organisations that don't get the majority of their funding from the EU and studies that are not directly funded by the EU.

There you go again - "that don't get the majority". So what, the organisation gets some EU funding. When an organisation gets EU funding, either directly or indirectly, it has lost its ability to call itself 'independent'. Many also get UK Government and NGO funding.

Goldman Sachs isn't Robin Hood but neither are the hedge funds that are funding the Brexit campaign so they can avoid increased regulation.

One hedge fund , Odey, is funding LEAVE and that hedge fund is also funding REMAIN and funds both in the interests of fairness. Meanwhile big banks, big corporations and many more hedge funs are funding REMAIN, to manipulate the EU into passing laws in their favour as Bronze pointed out downthread.

Daniel Hannan is yet another who willfully misuses data, and it makes him far less credible than you think, do you think he doesn't stand to benefit positions on boards of hedge funds in the future?

I will ask him next time I see him, but in the interim you should refrain from attempting to tarnish his reputation.

Goldman are ONE organisation backing remain, there are many, many others, all with very different objectives

Nope - all have common objective of being able to manipulate the EU in a way they could not do to democratically elected Governments.

But every single one you just shout "vested interest" and that is all you can come up with, that and shouting project fear.

So they are funding REMAIN out of the kindness of their hearts and concern for the UK taxpayers Lurked? Or maybe they think there is even more money it in for them if we stay in than if we come out. These are ruthless multinationals driven solely by self-interest - not your local kitten rescue charity.

Quite comical really.
No Lurked, It' sad. It's really sad that people are prepared to surrender their freedoms without even understanding what they are giving away.

Lurked

If you didn't wade though my posts how did you managed to pick up 2 out of the many points I made to counter?

On the investment side, from the billons we save from not having to subside the EU, the Government could reduce Corporation tax or give corporations incentives to setup shop in the UK. Something it is not allowed to do under EU rules. Not even to save our own steel works. See how the EU is stifling us?

The EU is not some form of saviour to us, not by a long chalk. It's a wolf in sheeps clothing but the clothing is coming off. It's a federal state in the making that can't even control it borders causing massive social and economic problems for many of its member states.

The prospect of being owned and ruled by the EU, a failed social experiment in the making , is a disaster of epic proportions is making an utter mess of Europe with its ever increasing meddling of the affairs of member states with ballooning rules and regulations.

Spain, Portulgal, Italy, Greece, Ireland (PIGS nice acronym) suffering.. Shengen countries putting up barriers because they are fed up with the EUs lack of ability to do anything about the mass migration of people just walking in. Bail ins, bank customers losing their savings. Increased terrorism threat, example of mass rape. Sweden has huge increase of rapes. Merkel silencing satirists ...

Not the sort of club I want to be a member of.

I would rather be a bit poorer for a couple of years (though that isn't guaranteed) and be rid of the EU. I'm sure my children will thank me for it. And I'm sure my Great Grandfather who lost his live fighting for our country will rest peacefully knowing his Great Grandson also fault in turn for the freedom of his country.

I think Daniel Hannan's reputation gets tarnished every time he opens his mouth and repeates untrue information. He has often used the erroneous £350 million a week stat for one.

Its not the "principle" of the data I've just used ( and great use of hyperbole in your killing people example btw), its that you think an organisation mainly funded by British people would taint its reputation for such a small amount. At least two academic studies have shown that actually the BBC is far more pro business, and gives lots of air time to anti EU agendas, but then I think that most people think its biased against them because its actually very neutral.

Harping about freedoms when your economic and political arguments hold very little water?

What freedoms does the EU take away from you?

"Spain, Portulgal, Italy, Greece, Ireland (PIGS nice acronym) suffering.. Shengen countries putting up barriers because they are fed up with the EUs lack of ability to do anything about the mass migration of people just walking in. Bail ins, bank customers losing their savings. Increased terrorism threat, example of mass rape. Sweden has huge increase of rapes. Merkel silencing satirists "

PROJECT FEAR... and utter drivel too.

Do you think the refugees wouldn't be coming without the EU?

Bank customers lost savings in Cyprus, the Austria and other arrangements are very different. Misrepresentation again.

The threat of terrorism has increased because of what is going on in Syria not becauseof the EU.

The Rapes in Sweeden? Not to do with the EU but with Sweedish government policy, if it is down to migrants they aren't EU ones

Lurked

You can keep all your stats and numbers for it means little to me in comparison for my desire to live as freely as I can.. Freedom is a priceless commodity. Being owned and ruled by the EU nanny state is totally contrary to living freely.

How many counties in the past that fought for their freedom, ultimately gave it all away for nothing?

I want my country back. Were good enough and big enough to be independent of the EU. That is why I am voting out.

All the other bonuses of being free of the EU are just the icing on a huge cake.

Why don't you share you REAL reason for wanting to remain in the EU?

Oh so now we can't back our opinions we start to discuss freedom? Are you not free to live as you wish now? How does the EU restrict that? Really ?

I want to remain in the EU cause its the best thing for us as a nation, economically, for the freedoms it grants us in travel, opportunity, for our human rights.

Why does the EU, as 'trade organisation' feel the need to give £millions to universities?

"Spain, Portulgal, Italy, Greece, Ireland (PIGS nice acronym) suffering..

True. Greece has stated that it is likely to be unable to meet its liabilities by mid-May. It has run out of money - again.

Shengen countries putting up barriers because they are fed up with the EUs lack of ability to do anything about the mass migration of people just walking in.

True. Countries are reinstating their physical borders. Have you not noticed?

Bail ins, bank customers losing their savings.

True. Cypriots had their savings devalued by the EU. We shall have to hope our own savings are not devalued when we join the Euro, which Mr Hesseltine assures us we will. Which is another good reason for leaving the EU.

Increased terrorism threat

True. Some of the Paris and Belgium attackers entered the EU via the migrant route.

example of mass rape. Sweden has huge increase of rapes.
True

Merkel silencing satirists "
True. She has arrested a satirist to pacify Turkey who is her partner in human trafficking - the transport of people for money.

Don't tell me you think all these things were fabricated as an elaborate project fear clusterfuck?

No - Just a normal year in the old old EU.

You sound as though you're starting to notice the downside of the EU, Lurked.

Welcome to the other sidel

Um that was copied and pasted from another post...

Oh so now we can't back our opinions we start to discuss freedom? Are you not free to live as you wish now? How does the EU restrict that? Really ?

Lurked -If you understood freedom you would understand that it requires no 'evidence' or hyperlinks to back it up. You either have freedom or your are enslaved.

I want to remain in the EU cause its the best thing for us as a nation, economically, for the freedoms it grants us in travel, opportunity, for our human rights

It breaks my heart to see such misinformed, puerile reasons for submitting yourself and your children to rule by a foreign power.

Most of the counties in the world are outside the EU - you can travel to them and to the EU without being in political union with them.

Human Rights are not protected by the EU, they are protected by the Human Rights Act which we will still have when we leave the EU.

I could respect, but disagree with, someone who said they wanted to be in the EU because they believed that the rich countries in Europe should pay to develop the poor countries.

i could respect, but disagree with someone who said they believed in World Government and getting the first 28 countries together was a good first step.

But to want to hand away your democratic power to the EU, in the mistaken belief that you need to do so tin order to live in someone else's country and can only enjoy your human rights by doing so - well, last time I looked we were not living in a gulag. The EU may change that though.

Here, have one of these

Haha, you are quite ridiculous.

You don't link to anything because you can't find anything that backs your points, apart from Daniel Hannan whom you repeatedly reference. Its why your only response to a whole host of organisations research is "vested interest".

I have no respect for anyone who uses such hyperbole to make facile points repeatedly, willfully misrepresents facts, or paints pictures of dystopian futures that bear little or no basis to reality.

Sweet dreams.

course there are vested interests, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they are negative. Also stating this for every opinion or piece of research that contradicts your opinion is poor.

What do you think vested interests means? Are you trying to convince me that these organisations are doing anything other than that which ultimately benefits themselves?

The evidence for is far more convincing than the evidence against, for one reason alone that so many different organisations with far different objectives have backed remain.

Is that before or after the latest news that city firms are now increasingly coming out for Brexit? The financial institutions seem to be aware of the increased regulation from the EU stifling their business. Just like after more analysis, Politians and others are seeing TTIP for what it really is. Another wolf in sheep's clothing.

When you come here with something other than Daniel Hannan and the Daily Mail, whom it have been convincingly proved to misuse the information presented. Maybe you will convince people further

I don't read the Daily Mail
. Where's the proof Daniel Hannan misuses information?
How much credibility does Osbourne have selling a document that claims to be able to predict events 14 years into the future? You call that evidence? I call that guesswork.
And no one from the remain camp misuses information, is that correct?

Lurked

Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece, Ireland (PIGS nice acronym) suffering.. Shengen countries putting up barriers because they are fed up with the EUs lack of ability to do anything about the mass migration of people just walking in. Bail ins, bank customers losing their savings. Increased terrorism threat, example of mass rape. Sweden has huge increase of rapes. Merkel silencing satirists "

PROJECT FEAR... and utter drivel too*

Project fear - Pot kettle black

I expand my reasoning below.

One of the reasons the PIGS are in trouble is they cannot set their own interest rates nor enable their currency to free float. Their economies are being slaughtered because the Euro is too strong for them.. 25 or so countries with differing economic cycles sharing the same currency is a setup for failure. What do you think Obama would say if we asked him to fix the pound to the US Dollar at 1.5 for the next 20 years?

To illustrate this, since the ERM was conceived, the pound to ECU/Euro has fluctuated from 1.02 to 1.73. Had we have fixed it by going into the Euro, some of the time our currency would have been too weak and some too strong or worse, always too strong or always too weak.We'd have felt the effects of that though artificially over and under priced exports and imports. Also look what happened when we were in the ERM? The pound could not remain in the limited band required and we lost 3bn to speculators who forced the Government to try to keep the pound at a level it was not supposed to be at and we came out of the ERM.
I recall we also had 'evidence' from all the experts that the UK would be left out in the cold if we didn't join the Euro, but that turned out to totally untrue. So it is possible for the majority of experts to be wrong, specially if they have vested interests (there I go again).

Shengen. Free movement of people until it does not suit the countries to allow it. Every man for himself, That is not a union of common interest.

Merkel invited 1m migrants into the EU. A combo of economic migrants and refugees.

Bail ins may not have occurred if the countries could have set their own exchange rates and currency rates.

Also noted is EU policy to enable banks to make bail ins a legal process but at the same time, the EU has not told people that bank deposits become a debt of the bank and there is no guarantee of getting your money out if the bank fails. Just whose interest is this in would you say? The banks or the poor souls who don't know how the fractional reserve banking system works?

Terrorism is much more of a threat because of the freesom of movement thoughout Europe, Even Obama and other remainers have acknowledged this.

Merkel silencing a satirist is the thin edge of the wedge for us losing more of our freedom of speech. I wonder when satire will be deemed illegal in the EU adding still more bonkers politcal correctness to the statue book.

Cologne. Much has been written about this in these chat rooms altready.

Lurked

*can't back our opinions we start to discuss freedom? Are you not free to live as you wish now? How does the EU restrict that? Really ?

I want to remain in the EU cause its the best thing for us as a nation, economically, for the freedoms it grants us in travel, opportunity, for our human rights.*

I have backed up my comments and they have been concurred by another contributor..

I have disclosed my reason for leaving. It obviously went over your head that I care not for stats and pounds and pence as much as my freedom. That is why I made those comments.

Now we know why you are staying in, we can discuss those points.

Economics. As I have stated before, the state of our economy in 2030 cannot be predicted by anyone. Only someone delusional would think otherwise..

So on that basis, I would say, that there is an equal chance that we may be a lot worse off, a little worse off, the same, a bit better off or lot better off in 2030 irrespective of whether we stay or leave. So a vote based on the long term economic outlook of the country is down to pure chance.

Human rights. The UK already has good human rights before the EU. I am all for human rights however, like a lot of these things, the pendulum swings too far and we get bonkers situations occurring. Like the case of the individual who murdered 77 teenagers in cold blood accusing the prison he was sent to violating his human rights. He forgot that he violated the rights of 77 people to live freely and in peace. Like we have had recently where identities of dangerous criminals have their identities concealed because of their human rights. The HRA needs tearing up and rewriting only this time considering the rights of the violated are at least equal to or greater than those of the perpetrators. I wouldn't trust the EU to do that. In the UK we have the petition system where the public can now request that certain topics are discussed in parliament. No such system to my knowledge exists in the EU. The EU is not democratic so I would not expect such an opportunity to exist there.

Your points about freedom of travel cannot be attrubted to the EU. Long before the existence of the EU, I remember travelling to Europe. There was no requirement other than possessing a United Kingdom passort to gain entry into Europe. The same as today.

Opportunity to work abroad existed then too, A lots of people sought opportunity in places that spoke English because it was much easier than having to learn one of the European languages. so again this is not something that the EU has given us.

So all in all your decision to vote to stay has very little to offer you than voting to stay out.

As I have stated, from the evidence I have, the EU is less democratic (not democratic) than the UK. So on that basis, I would sugest that being ruled by Eurocrats is a regressive move.

Though our voting system isn't that fair in that the Tories have a majorly in the house but do not have the proportionate percentage of the votes, at least we can vote out MPs every 5 years.
I also like the fact that our MPs live here, get feedback from the communities they reorient and understand the needs and wants of the country. This in total contrast to ther EU commission who make up rules that need to suit 28 countries, It means most of the time, we will have to live by rules that do not suit us. How can this be better than self governance?Again this is a regressive move.

I have always believed that differentt languages, 28 different ways of life, 28 different economies 28 different interest rates, 28 different currencies, 28 different exchange rates could never be harminised to everyones benefit. A trading bloc yes, as a superstate no. We've seen clear evidence it does not work and some members must be ruing the day they joined but haven't the means to exit other than by defaulting. Others like Germany have done well out of it however, the civil unrest to do with the free moement of people and high immigration has caused the rise of the far right. Not an intended consequence of the EU. There are theories that this is exactly what was intended but that is for another day.

So on the basis that on the economy there is nothng to choose between a stay or exit, free travel has always been available and will most likely remain, , the UK has human rights, voting out means avoiding regressive rule and more meaningful and appropriate rule, ability to select migrants according to the needs of the country, increased security once we have control of our borders, ability to trade with whoever we like and regain our seat as a major econmony, on balance, I get much more benefit from voting out than you do for voting to remain.

The problem with asking Springing to start another thread is that she is completely unwilling to engage with the other side of the debate. We already had a thread by Springing which eventually got 1,000 posts.

I can't remember how many times Springing told me I was wrong about everything, but it made me feel quite worried about the fact that I've spent a small fortune doing a master's degree in this subject. I was almost tempted to ask her to come and sit my exams for me...

Joking aside, I don't have the stamina for this any more, and I need to actually do well in these exams so that if the worst happens and we vote to leave, I can get the hell out of here and hopefully find a decent job in the country my boyfriend is from.

But it does worry me that other people might be reading these threads and deciding to vote for Brexit on the basis of what Springing has said, purely because her excessively long posts and unwillingness to actually debate have made all the opposition give up to save their own sanity.

Good cogent posts from Bronze as usual

I see ed milliband has waded into Project Fear with claims brexit will harm wildlife. I suggest he reads the TTIP documents leaked to Greenpeace today. TTIP is toxic and requires the EU to abandon many environmental and health protections. No wonder talks have been carried out behind closed doors.

Jorgo Riss, the director of Greenpeace EU, said: “These leaked documents give us an unparalleled look at the scope of US demands to lower or circumvent EU protections for environment and public health as part of TTIP. The EU position is very bad, and the US position is terrible. The prospect of a TTIP compromising within that range is an awful one. The way is being cleared for a race to the bottom in environmental, consumer protection and public health standards.”

Twooter
"Although to be fair, the EU doesn't seem to take any notice of other countries either - look at the Dutch and the Ukraine referendum."

Yes absolutely.

My guess is if we vote leave, the EU will tell Cameron and his successors to hold more referenda until they get the vote they want which of course is for us to stay in.

I has happened before with other countries,

It is clear from the EUs actions, it cares not for the wishes or desires of anyone and will railroad its self serving agenda for total integration irrespective.

We must vote out now - we won't get another chance.

On 23rd June, we will be making history by voting out.

In years to come we'll be sighing relief that we are not a part of the EU superstate project which, compared to Asia and other regions in the world, is a an economic shrinking violet and a social disaster.

In the same way today, we thank our lucky stars we are not in the Euro and didn't' swallow the experts advice and pressure that if we left we'd be out in the cold. On the contrary, we have done very well not being in the Euro. The pound is still an internationally respected currency.

When we vote to leave the EU, the UK will still be an internationally respected independent country once again regaining its international seats, rather than cowering behind Junker (or some other unelected Eurocrat we've never heard of that doesn't give a stuff about the UK) while they supposedly spout on our behalf.

In the past, we didn't let the EU destroy our currency (and with it our prosperity)despite their pressure to so do.

Now we mustn't let the EU destroy our country and along with it our childrens' rights to a decent, peaceful, independent, prospering and democratic future.

Vote out on the 23rd June. Don't just make history, make great history.

Buttere

"The problem with asking Springing to start another thread is that she is completely unwilling to engage with the other side of the debate. We already had a thread by Springing which eventually got 1,000 posts

I can only speculate that a thread achieving 1000 posts is I in fact being heavily* debated. If what you say is the case I'd expect the thread to peter out.

Joking aside, I don't have the stamina for this any more, and I need to actually do well in these exams so that if the worst happens and we vote to leave, I can get the hell out of here and hopefully find a decent job in the country my boyfriend is from.

I'd be keen to learn, what do you think is going to happen to you if we vote out that would cause you to leave the UK?

But it does worry me that other people might be reading these threads and deciding to vote for Brexit on the basis of what Springing has said, purely because her excessively long posts and unwillingness to actually debate have made all the opposition give up to save their own sanity"

I don't think you are giving other posters credit. It isn't' the length of the post that counts, it is what is contained within those posts that counts. It may well be that other posters and readers will have read all the posts both long and short and come to a conclusion that is not the same as yours and you don't like that. Perhaps you should be asking yourself, why are so many people deciding to vote against the wishes of the establishment? The mood of UK voters isn't unique in he EU. There is rising dissent ell over Europe. Again ask yourself why.

Bronze - my boyfriend and I have been waiting to live together for a long time. Because of what I do for a career and what he does, next year is the earliest that will be possible. If we vote to leave the EU on 23rd June, nobody knows whether there will be a grace period during which people's free movement rights are unaffected or not. So on a practical level, it could be that we will need to get married pretty quickly to make sure he has the right to come here and I have the right to go and live there. Obviously we'd much rather get married when we're good and ready, but a leave vote might bounce us into doing it sooner. But I think for us, the real problem is that it would make far more sense for him to come here. His contract is coming to an end, whereas I have a good, stable career and can support us both while he's finding his feet.

The problem is, if we leave, I truly believe that there will be economic chaos in this country. I think a lot of people who already live here will find that the jobs they already have are at risk. I think it will be a really bad time for an EU citizen to be moving here and looking for a job, and so it's quite likely that I will end up having to move instead. But that will mean giving up the job I have now, losing the employment rights I have accrued (such as enhanced maternity leave) and doing something which probably won't be a good career move for me and probably won't be as well paid as what I do now. It will probably delay us being able to start a family by a couple of years, and we're already in our 30s. In addition to that, I think the pound will fall sharply against most other currencies (including the euro) and stay low for the foreseeable future. All the money I have been carefully saving in the hope of buying a house is here in the UK. Right after the pound has crashed would be a terrible time to try and move it, so it'll be stuck here and pretty useless to me for the foreseeable future. I also think Brexit would make the economic situation worse across the EU, and might make it harder for me to get a job in his country as well.

So for me personally, that is what I am worried will happen.

Regarding Springing's posts, I think debate is good and healthy. But that's not what she's doing. She's posting long diatribes which are full of factual inaccuracies and refusing to acknowledge anyone who points out the obvious flaws in her arguments. It's very worrying. But I don't have time to debate with her any more. It serves no useful purpose as she is completely unwilling to consider the other point of view, and I need to use my time more wisely - making sure I ace these exams!

(She's also claimed to have legal qualifications, which I just don't believe is true at all.)