*scratches head* Why is the Remain campaign so rattled?

[TheABC]

I genuinely don't get it. They have already spent £9 million on leaflets, wheeled out everyone from the IMF to the American President and the telephone polls are putting them in the lead. Admittedly, the campaign feels a bit "meh" in that they are talking about potential losses instead of positive future plans, but they still seem to be doing OK.

So why does it feel like they are panicking? Could it just be the way it's reported?

The Remain campaign thought it would be easier than this. They expected that most undecided voters would hear a few soundbites, see a few statistics and choose to vote Remain. In fact the opposite is happening. Certainly most people I speak to are completely unconvinced by any stats/propaganda and are basing their decision on their own experiences. Those experiences are long waits for GP appointments, rocketing housing costs, low wages and ever-poorer working conditions such as the expansion of zero-hours contracts.

Alexander Graf Lambsdorff, vice-president of the European Parliament, would disagree lurked. He's said the deal isn't legally binding. "At the moment, the whole thing is nothing more than a deal that has been hammered out down the local bazaar".

it applies a million times more to the promises fantasies of the Flounce Out campaign

Really?

Like being able to make our own laws in Westminster that won't be superceded by EU laws? Using the UK's money as we wish, without sending it to Brussels and only getting part of it back for set purposes? Regaining our seat at the World Trade Organisation? etc.

LMER "long waits for GP appointments, rocketing housing costs, low wages and ever-poorer working conditions such as the expansion of zero-hours contracts."

You may well be right, but the time for them to campaign against the Tory government will surely be as the next General Election draws near.

It will be in the EU's interests to secure a good deal with the UK after Brexit, despite all the posturing before the referendum to try to convince us to stay.

If we remain, it will be a case of you've chosen this, and you may well be outvoted on anything you're against, so live with it.

We would still be governed by many EU laws because we would still need to trade with the EU (see Norway). what we wouldn't have is representation in the EU.

I am genuinely surprised that so many here are pro exit. I've not met a single person in Scotland who is.

Scottish national elections are on the 6th May SNP likely to win, they are likely to call for another independence vote, "Britain" (most likely only south east England) voting to leave the UK will result in the UK being broken up also.

"It will be in the EU's interests to secure a good deal with the UK after Brexit"

Yes, A4, the EU would indeed be wanting to secure treaties which is good from the EU perspective and satisfies their interests. UK would at that time be outside the EU, and have no voice and no vote inside. Which IMO would be very regrettable.

It will not be in the EU's interests to give the UK a particularly good deal, because that might encourage other stupid populations to vote to leave, so we'd more than likely get a pretty terrible deal.

If that's true, why on earth would we want to support a controlling bloc that spites those who leave, and aims to scare nations into staying? Or labels them stupid for preferring to be independent? Sounds unacceptable to me.

Walking away from such attitudes takes courage but is well worth it in the long run IMO.

UK would at that time be outside the EU, and have no voice and no vote inside.

What has been the result of the UK's votes in the EU? Nothing, as exactly the same results would have occurred had the UK not voted at all. The UK has either voted yes when the majority was yes anyway, or voted no and got outvoted. We already have little or no voice in the EU, and they don't seem keen to listen to the UK. I think they just want to keep us there to benefit from the money the UK sends, and to stop others following our lead. Not good reasons to stay.

I am genuinely surprised that so many here are pro exit.

I was surprised too. I was expecting to see a lot of healthy skepticism (and have indeed seen some), but much less enthusiastic fervour for the cause of Brexit.

You can't blame the EU for doing what's in its own interest, A4. It's not about being vindictive, there's no real sentiment in trade negotiations... The EU is unlikely to strike a deal that would jeopardise its own stability, and that's perfectly normal.

(Also the lack of British influence thing is a myth, or at least vastly exaggerated. I posted a WSJ article in the previous thread that explains why, I may try and find it again later)

I think the remain campaign thought it would be easier. Bit the anti immigration feeling in much of the country is high, and why not immigration has been reported by the papers and used by the tories to blame for everything.

NHS? Blame immigrants though it's not true as most EU immigrants are young and relatively healthy.as agreed by two Oxford studies. Housing? Blame immigration, although it's really down to cheap interest rates and chronic under building for decades. Low pay? Blame immigration, and although studies show immigrants work harder and have more skills than their British low skilled counterparts. Seriously if someone who speaks English as a second language is taking you are to blame. Al so look at what firms are doing now that hey nmw had gone up. Immigrants are all benefits scroungers.

Oh and the constant right wing conflation between EU immigrants, non EU and refugees.

In effect immigration and the labour policy on it had been blamed so much that of course a lot of people are going to think voting out will be a panacea to all the country's ills.

Sadly they are likely to be disappointed because the back of the fag packet economics of the brexit campaign never takes into consideration the effect of the other side negotiating and their interests.

The UK has either voted yes when the majority was yes anyway, or voted no and got outvoted.

That is pretty much how democracy works - whoever wins this referendum, they will be the majority.

However, unlike individuals voting in the referendum, countries negotiate with other countries and agree to support certain policies. Parliamentary majorities don't happen by chance.

All those relationships will still exist outside the the EU but you can't offer your vote as part of a deal if you have no vote.

Maybe they know that just abusing those who are seriously worried by the throwing away of sovereignty - ie insinuating they are racists or insane, will not, in the privacy of a ballot booth, dissuade those who want to be able to vote for those who make our laws.
I am a small business owner, turnover 4 million, and although we work across Europe and our clients are primarily on the USA, I know we will continue to prosper regardless of Brexit or staying. Because the quality of staff, determination, usp etc are what matters for small companies. Trade deals only really effect the multi-nationals, who of course love the EU as they have the muscle to lobby the EU and get legislation that works for them. See the diesel car industry for an example!
Small companies have no power to lobby the EU and hence small business owners so often want the freedom Brexit could bring.
But I am fed up of the racist little England insinuations - this should be a huge debate on sovereignty but all we hear are extremist views on either side . Very disappointing.

Maybe they know that just abusing those who are seriously worried by the throwing away of sovereignty - ie insinuating they are racists or insane, will not, in the privacy of a ballot booth, dissuade those who want to be able to vote for those who make our laws.
I am a small business owner, turnover 4 million, and although we work across Europe and our clients are primarily on the USA, I know we will continue to prosper regardless of Brexit or staying. Because the quality of staff, determination, usp etc are what matters for small companies. Trade deals only really effect the multi-nationals, who of course love the EU as they have the muscle to lobby the EU and get legislation that works for them. See the diesel car industry for an example!
Small companies have no power to lobby the EU and hence small business owners so often want the freedom Brexit could bring.
But I am fed up of the racist little England insinuations - this should be a huge debate on sovereignty but all we hear are extremist views on either side . Very disappointing.

There's nothing unprecedented about the government sending out leaflets setting out their position in referenda. The Wilson government did it in the EEC referendum 1975 & the coalition government also during the Scottish referendum

Very true

The older folk get very angry when they see the 1975 leaflet and badge.

They thought they were joining a Common Market - not political union

Look at the subversion of "Europe" on the badge. An honest badepge would have said "in the EEC"

. We have always been part of Europe and will continue to be list BREXIT

I spring, but I fear you won't get the deal.you want and no one will be happy.

The problem with the sovereignty debate Ros is that with any European trade deal there would still be something of a loss.

Build more to satisfy the ever-increasing population? The UK taxpayer doesn't want to fund swathes of new housing/infrastructure/power stations/reservoirs etc. across valuable farmland, beauty spots and native habitats.

Who said the UK tax payers would?