The EU Referendum is nearly upon us.........23rd June.

[Daisyonthegreen]

I have been invited by other posters to start a new EU Referendum Thread as the EU thread "In out shake it all about what to vote in the EU referendum "is now closed.
Anyhow this vote is is pretty crucial for the good of the country and your family.
I make no secret of the fact I feel to vote to Leave is the best option.
On the "In out shake it all about,what to vote in the EU Referendum " Thread I posted many links and gave views on why I feel that way.
I feel we would flourish free of the beaucratic ,undemocratic organisation it has turned into.
A Trading block initially started up with 9 countries in the 1970s has become out of control,mammoth and unwieldy and frankly rather dangerous.
We need to wrest back control of our own country,our borders and our ability to broker our own Trade deals which the EU insists on doing for us.
Plus our own Judicial decisions.
We on leaving would still Trade with the EU,they need us more than we need them actually but the beauty of it we could be free to broker our own deals with the rest of the world on our terms.
In short we would flourish.
We can love/ like Europe but not be in the EU.

And where are the manifestos for what MEPs plan to do once they're elected? They don't exist unless anyone can point me in the right direction. Of course, there's no point in them, because potential MEPs can't even make any promises, because they will just be outvoted and unable to deliver them.

Not to mention the fact that it's the Commission doing all the leg-work on law making, not the MEPs. In what way can an ordinary citizen appeal to the whole unelected Commission to consider a change to a law?

How can Daisy be a "paid Brexit campaigner" any more than you're a paid Remain campaigner?

Where would someone apply for that job and who would be paying them?

lurked101, you've inspired me to look up the Conservative Manifesto from last year The section about the EU is particularly interesting, looking at their stance and the promises they made.

Conservative Manifesto 2015

Some quotes:

"reform the workings of the EU which is too big, too bossy and too bureaucratic"

"reclaim power from Brussels on your behalf"

"back businesses to create jobs in Britain by completing ambitious trade deals and reducing red tape"

"The EU is too bureaucratic and too undemocratic. It interferes too much in our daily lives, and the scale of migration triggered by new members joining in recent years has had a real impact on local communities"

" Yes to a family of nation states, all part of a European Union – but whose interests, crucially, are guaranteed whether inside the Euro or out
No to 'ever closer union'.
No to a constant flow of power to Brussels
No to unnecessary interference
And no, of course, to the Euro, to participation in Eurozone bail-outs or notions like a European Army"

"we will negotiate a new settlement for Britain in Europe, and then ask the British people whether they want to stay in the EU"

"We want to see powers flowing away from Brussels, not to it"

"we will continue to ensure that defence policy remains firmly under British national control, maintaining NATO and the transatlantic relationship as the cornerstones of our defence and security policy"

"We want to ensure that new rules target unscrupulous behaviour in the financial services industry"

"We will continue to promote the golden thread of democracy, the rule of law, property rights, a free media and open, accountable institutions"

The views of a woman for a change!
www.express.co.uk/news/politics/660434/Britain-dragged-into-EU-economic-crisis-remain-referendum-brexit
The woman maintains we will be in economic ruin if we don't leave the EU.
Interesting read.

Itinerary
You are correct.
The sad fact is we have no say in the EU
84% of all motions AGAINST British interest were passed! Between 2009-2014.
It's no argument to stay In to change things.
The EU will not listen to the UK.

Chalalala
You made me laugh with your Groundhog Day comment.
You are the one who invited me to start a new Thread.
My stance isn't going to change,I know this country will flourish when we Leave the EU.
Let's just agree to differ in the time honoured fashion.
Lurked101
You are desperately aggressive
Once again let us civilly agree to differ.

Excellent points Itinerary.

Thank you.

Despite the constant snideyness and belittling of her here, good to see Daisy is still fighting her corner. Good for her.

Itinerary - regarding the Conservative manifesto I notice that Corbyn was giving it the 'we need to be in the EU to be able to change their undemocratic ways' (paraphrasing). What a load of rubbish.

I also notice the massive deflecting he was doing yesterday, spent the majority of his time slagging off the Tories and not even talking about the EU.

Your article daisy links to the chairman of vote leave.

I'll take the independent view of the economist , HSBC, PWC, CBI etc rather than that.

Anyway. I think I'm done here. This isn't a debate. Most bremain posters have acknowledged pointa made by others or he bad for some EU reform but you brexiters... same points made over and over again, despite well soured rebuttal. You just want to have your prejudices confirmed.

I fear for the UKs future when people start basing an argument on the EU on the refugee crisis (which would be going on in or out). It misunderstands the entire situation and shows the true heart of the brexit campaign. Xenophobia.

Oh and btw you can see the EU mps manifestos easily by looking on line, they are accountable. But I'm not going to explain the democratic process of the EU to you again. Whatever is said your going to repeat the faceless blah blah blah argument like a stuck record.

HelpfulChap, Daisy seems like a kind and polite person, but there is a reason she is being side-eyed here. It's because she consistently refuses to engage in argument. She will only post links to other people's opinions. And when her point is thoroughly refuted, she hides behind "I'm just a mum not a politician". Rinse and repeat.

I keep hoping against hope that some of our arguments will be answered, or at least engaged with, but it looks like it won't be in this thread either.

I am with you MyHovercraftIsFullOfEels. I too hope that lurking undecided voters may be interested in hearing some facts.

Here is one.

It is not true that the EU commission does all the leg-work in law making. The commission can only make proposals, that are then debated, amended (and occasionally rejected!) by MEPs.

Importantly, the European Parliament can dismiss the commision with a vote of no confidence

I'm afraid I'm with you Chalalala. There is simply no engagement, let alone argument or attempted rebuttal from the Brexit campaign.

I will be voting remain.

However I don't think this statement is correct. Ime this happens on camps and neither can see why the other doesn't agree with them.

Perhaps it's best to accept that all of us here (on both sides) are preaching to the converted rather than hoping the 'other side' to see the light so to speak

It's possible to have constructive discussions about politics though, even about divisive topics, and even on MN. Not sure why Brexit is bringing out this need to preach one's "truth", instead of being willing to listen and exchange.

It is terrible what is happening currently regards Greece and the International Monetary Fund
Thank God we didn't join the euro which I was frightened we would at one stage.

www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/greece-back-in-the-firing-line-as-imf-reconsiders-bailout-deal-a6985671.html

I post links because I make the time to look at sites,really not every mum can find the time,so bear with me.
I met a Greek couple recently and they calmly but emotionally said " please vote out of this,I wish we could get out "
Frankly we do need to get out of this mess.

The Greek government could have defaulted and left the euro/EU, but that would have been even worse for the country. (As my own Greek friends believe.)

I've seen a few pro-Brexit posters complain (quite rightly I think) about how poorly Greece was treated by the EU. But the alternative was using British taxpayers' money to pay back Greece's debt. I have a feeling the Brexit posters would have liked that even less... in which case it's a little disingenuous to be all "poor Greece" now. Am I wrong?

Chalalala
All I can think is frankly it's tragic plus the EU is imploding daily.
They are desperate to keep us In as we are a "cash cow" for them
Quite simple really.
It's a dreadful dreadful mess,one we should get out of.
It's called self preservation,a very human instinct.
It's called being protective,a Mothers instinct.
Vote Leave.

Mr Cameron tried to get concessions when he went to Europe for talks.
He now tells us if we Remain in the EU we will be able to control our borders.
But today it is reported that the European Court of Justice has told Britain we must loosen our immigration controls!!!
Like I say we have no influence.
I'm out.

It is not true that the EU commission does all the leg-work in law making. The commission can only make proposals, that are then debated, amended (and occasionally rejected!) by MEPs.

MEPs can’t initiate, propose or repeal legislation. This is different from any other parliament.

Why can't the elected MEPs make the proposals themselves on behalf of the voters, instead of just serving as a puppet government, rubber-stamping what the Commission gives them? Why should there be this barrier, in the interests of bureaucrats, politicians and large organisations, to put law-making further removed from the people?

When MEPs were to ratify the new Commission President, there was only one candidate on the ballot paper (Juncker) and MEPs could either vote "yes" or abstain. Where's the democracy?

There is also a big problem with the secrecy of trilogues.

Secret EU lawmaking: the triumph of the trilogues

Secret "Trilogues" are part of EU law-making but do not exist in legal terms.

"All trilogue meetings are informal and the timing of the meetings are not known to most MEPs, let alone the ordinary public. There are no formal minutes taken."

""The Commission is supposed to be the facilitator of the trilogues, but in reality it sees itself more and more as the ‘ruler’", says Daniel Gueguen, a seasoned Brussels lobbyist and expert in business of EU law-making.

The commission also has two legal trump cards: it can withdraw its proposal, and can insist that legislation can only be adopted with the unanimous support of council."

Complex EU law-making dubbed 'infernal, undemocratic

Trilogues: What goes on behind closed doors

Ombudsman takes aim at EU's secret law making

Transparency International's reply to the European Ombudsman's consultation on the transparency of trilogues

"Transparency International has identified the lack of transparency in trilogue negotiations as one of the principal transparency blindspots in the EU legislative process. As we pointed out in our EU Integrity Studyin these meetings large concessions are won and lost with very little oversight and without public disclosure. In the vast majority of cases, Parliament’s plenary vote serves only to rubber stamp the deals secured by a handful of negotiators from each institution, side-lining 99% of MEPs in the process."

"the trilogue process is now used for virtually all legislative files. During the last legislative term there were 1,500 trilogue meetings"

Rules that apply to regular proceedings within the parliament for example (committee meetings are open to the public, web-streaming, and minutes of all meetings available online) do not apply to trilogue meetings for which there are no minutes, no participant lists and no publicly available record of results such as minutes".

When MEPs were to ratify the new Commission President, there was only one candidate on the ballot paper (Juncker) and MEPs could either vote "yes" or abstain. Where's the democracy?

The democratically-elected European head of states agree on a candidate, and MEPs absolutely have the power to vote no, in which case a new candidate has to be presented to them within a month.

Yes, the system could certainly be more transparent. But it's not nearly as bad as you're trying to make it sound. Not to mention, every democracy has its dodgy mechanisms (or abuse of theoretically sound mechanisms), including Britain. There was an interesting link posted earlier about recent Tory practices of systematically trying to circumvent parliament.

There is also the problem that if more powers were given to the European Parliament, say if they got to directly elect a President and propose their own laws, many people (especially in Britain) would cry that a European Superstate is being created that does not answer to national governments. So really, the EU can't win.

It's frustrating that the exit campaign won't (can't for lack of fact) engage in a detailed discussion. Instead prefering to blindly complain about a lack of democracy whilst ignoring the Tory attempts to neuter the house of lords. For heaven's sake if there was a reason to worry about a lack of democracy in UK affairs it's Tory attacks on the second house!