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Brexit

The EU Referendum is nearly upon us.........23rd June.

1000 replies

Daisyonthegreen · 13/04/2016 20:42

I have been invited by other posters to start a new EU Referendum Thread as the EU thread "In out shake it all about what to vote in the EU referendum "is now closed.
Anyhow this vote is is pretty crucial for the good of the country and your family.
I make no secret of the fact I feel to vote to Leave is the best option.
On the "In out shake it all about,what to vote in the EU Referendum " Thread I posted many links and gave views on why I feel that way.
I feel we would flourish free of the beaucratic ,undemocratic organisation it has turned into.
A Trading block initially started up with 9 countries in the 1970s has become out of control,mammoth and unwieldy and frankly rather dangerous.
We need to wrest back control of our own country,our borders and our ability to broker our own Trade deals which the EU insists on doing for us.
Plus our own Judicial decisions.
We on leaving would still Trade with the EU,they need us more than we need them actually but the beauty of it we could be free to broker our own deals with the rest of the world on our terms.
In short we would flourish.
We can love/ like Europe but not be in the EU.

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Chalalala · 22/04/2016 19:10

And good for you! Smile

Chalalala · 22/04/2016 19:25

What Obama has to say is relevant to the conversation, though. A big part of the Brexit case is that the UK would be able to quickly and easily strike trade deals with other countries. He's made it very clear that as far as the US is concerned, that's not going to happen. He says it's just not a priority for them, and I suspect he's one of the better authorities on the question.

You can cross your fingers and hope the next president will take a wildly different view of what constitutes American trade interests, but I wouldn't count on it. Especially if the next president is his own former foreign policy secretary, as seems increasingly likely.

Chalalala · 22/04/2016 19:44

And btw the US position is not actually news, the US Trade Representative already said last year that

"I think it's absolutely clear that Britain has a greater voice at the trade table being part of the EU, being part of a larger economic entity.”

"We're not particularly in the market for FTAs [free trade agreements] with individual countries. We're building platforms that other countries can join over time."

"We have no FTA with the UK so they would be subject to the same tariffs – and other trade-related measures - as China, or Brazil or India.”

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11962277/Major-blow-for-Brexit-campaign-as-US-rules-out-UK-only-trade-deal.html

StepintotheLightleave · 22/04/2016 19:48

BronzeBust Thu 21-Apr-16 11:34:54

stunning post, thank you

PigletJohn · 23/04/2016 00:16

very shoddy of Boris, who is a US citizen, to try to smear Obama and suggest he is anti-British... still more shoddy to suggest it is due to his racial heritage.

Mr Johnson said in his article: "No-one was sure whether the president had himself been involved in the decision", adding: "Some said it was a snub to Britain. Some said it was a symbol of the part-Kenyan president's ancestral dislike of the British Empire - of which Churchill had been such a fervent defender."

The vile Farage went further:

But UKIP leader Nigel Farage defended the comments, saying: "I think Obama, because of his grandfather and Kenya and colonisation, I think Obama bears a bit of a grudge against this country."

These two shameful racists were falsely claiming that Obama had discarded a bust of Winston Churchill. FFS.

Obama did not let these smears go unanswered.

Mr Obama made clear his admiration for Britain's wartime leader in pointed remarks at a press conference.

He did not mention Mr Johnson by name but said he had a bust of Churchill outside the Treaty Room - his private office on the second floor of his official residence.

"Right outside the door of the Treaty Room, so that I see it every day - including on weekends when I'm going into that office to watch a basketball game - the primary image I see is a bust of Winston Churchill," he said.

"It's there voluntarily because I can do anything on the second floor. I love the guy."

HildaOgdensMuriel · 23/04/2016 00:23

I just read that Obama did give back the bust, to the ambassador I think.

He said in his press conference he replaced it with a bust of Martin LutherKing.

HildaOgdensMuriel · 23/04/2016 00:25

And there is a second bust of Churchill. It's hard to care too much tbh.

What is true is that there hasn't been a " Special Relationship" since Thatcher - Reagan.

PigletJohn · 23/04/2016 00:58

Hilda

Did you not also read that the bust in question was loaned to the previous president, and was returned, as were other loans, when he left office?

lurked101 · 23/04/2016 01:09

Who cares anyway, the worst thing about this is Boris's racial slur.

PigletJohn · 23/04/2016 01:16

indeed so.

He was sneering at Obama's heritage to obliquely disparage his points on EU.

lurked101 · 23/04/2016 01:24

He seems to have forgotten his own Turkish heritage.

A4Document · 23/04/2016 02:24

The question "What would it be like after Brexit?" seems to come up regularly.

Here's what Vote Leave say.

Chalalala · 23/04/2016 09:03

what they say on this website is based on the assumption of free trade with the rest of Europe without any of the bits they don't like about the EU. That's not very realistic.

lurked101 · 23/04/2016 11:32

It also assumes the the UK will have the same access to other countries markets as agreed through EU trade deals. Not likely.

BronzeBust · 23/04/2016 12:30

Lurked

Incorrect, it increases the likelyhood of investment and increases the amount that the government can spend investing in schools, education etc. It also increases the amount of FDI, all, of which increases the wealth of the country and its productive capacity.

The reason the government likes us to spend and not save, ie increase the velocity of money is that the other effect is they end up collecting more tax.

When we spend money, more ofter than not we also pay tax. Eg VAT, excise duty, insurance premium tax, air fair tax, 8.3% tax on new cars before VAT is added on top.

If we all saved a little, this represents a loss of income to the treasury.

If we all borrow and spend money, out of every £100 we borrow personally and spend, the governent picks up some income from the purchase taxes we pay. Now they can build schools with that increased tax take. Good so far but now we have spent more than we can afford,we end up on the hook because now we have to pay back the loans with intetest.

I have illustrated why us spending gives the government more tax take.

I can illustrate the velocity of money increase being good for government. A household pays a window cleaner £100 per month to clean their windows. The owner decides it's a bit of a luxury to have their windows cleaned every week so they decide to have them done once a month instead. The window cleaner now only earns £25 per month. The window cleaner earns less and therfore pays less tax. Not good for the government. The house owner keeps the money in the bank (foolish place to keep it but hey) and decides to save it for a rainy day. Not good for the government. That pesky house holder might sit on that money for years before he spends it on a meal out with his family. This delays the point the government gets to receive the VAT on the meal he buys and of course the tax on the profit the restaurant makes.

This is why it is critical to the treasury we all borrow and spend. A totally contrary action to the principle of becoming wealthier.

Why do you think intetest rates are so low? I keeps our huge borrowing interest payments low. It also penalises savers and encourages them to spend. After inflation, savers are getting poorer just by saving. Even at this all time sustained low interest rate level we are still running a trade deficit. Because western central banks are running out of bullets to revive their ailing economies by printing money and reducing interest rates, they've thought up a new wheeze, negative interest rates. Yes that's right, you'll be taxed if you save money. This will be hardish to accomplish while we can withdraw cash and store it under the matrass. Once cash is done away with (after all only drug dealers and criminals use cash or so we're led to believe ), you'll be stuffed.
The EU likes the idea of negative interest rates. The idea of being in polical and monetary union with a crumbling and indebted bloc of countries fills me with dread. Especially one with no control of the number and type of people that just walk in every week that by definition when they get their EU passport can walk in here too.

However you want to view it, it is not possible to become richer by borrowing to consume if you are forced to borrow to consume, you are getting poorer. It applies to individuals, companies and countries.

I can't fathom how spending increases the liklihood of investment. Please could you explain that to me?

To counter the idea of a small country being left out in the cold I suggest you read about Singapore. Once poor, now after 25 years of reformed leadership is now one of the wealthiest nations in the world.

If they can do it, so can we. Because they didn't start off being the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world when they reformed. Singapore didn't achieve it's success by shackling itself to a crumbling indebted union.

It urks me when our leaders who cannot be stupid try to convince us we aren't good enough to be free of the EU.

Long term, we have just as much chance of building our county's wealth out of the EU than in it. Given no one can predict what will happen economically, that leaves us other upside of leaving the EU, that we will be able to take back control of our country. I still haven't had a convincing reason why, letting 27 other heads of state influence by a factor of 9 to 1 what is right for our country is a positive move. That would be like saying to Tesco shareholders, we are diluting your vote by a factor of 10 and from now on, 90% of the vote will be decided by disinterested parties. Even if all Tesco shareholders vote 100 % in favour of a motion, it won't matter a jot because the other 90% will be able out vote them every single time.

Now we have Obama on the case, I really ask myself while tapping my fingers on my desk, what's in it for him. TTIP perhaps? I know you'll counter by saying, if we are out, the US will force us to sign our own agreement anyway. Well we also have to consider that the UK and US already has strong investments and trade both ways with each other. I can't see this being unwound by us refusing to sign up to a TTIP type agreement. Everyone will lose. For the USA, it's just easier if we're in the EU. I don't for one minute believe Obama made that soeech for our benefit.

PigletJohn · 23/04/2016 13:07

" it increases the likelyhood of investment and increases the amount that the government can spend investing in schools, education etc. "

I see no evidence for this assertion.

Resigning from one of the world's largest trading blocs will only reduce trade, not increase it.

Even in the event that there was a small saving (which there won't be) we know that the current government would use it to cut taxes for the rich, not to increase spending for the general population.

lurked101 · 23/04/2016 13:16

Ah Bronze that post is so chock full of your quasi economics that I can't be bothered to answer it.

Especially not when you say things like: "I can't fathom how spending increases the liklihood of investment. Please could you explain that to me?"

I'd suggest you go and take the GCSE, I can't be bothered to explain such basic fundamentals.

Your point about Obama, with the obligatory brexit reference to TTIP (which you don't understand really you think it just strengthens your point, it doesn't) He made the speech because as he rightly points out the Brexit side keep talking about our own trade deal with the US, he has said that it won't happen quickly and that we will be at the back of the queue. Now as the next President is likely to be his Foreign Secretary that is likely to be the case, even Trump would probably follow the advice of the US trade negotiators.

Singapore is not the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world btw, I really suggest you improve your economic knowledge.

money.cnn.com/news/economy/world_economies_gdp/
www.investopedia.com/articles/investing/022415/worlds-top-10-economies.asp

lurked101 · 23/04/2016 13:53

knoema.com/nwnfkne/world-gdp-ranking-2015-data-and-charts

Singapore is 39th using nominal GDP and 41 using GDP based on its purchasing power parity valuation.

Singapore isn't even in the top 15 of GDP per capita.

knoema.com/sijweyg/gdp-per-capita-ranking-2015-data-and-charts

Chalalala · 23/04/2016 14:01

Now we have Obama on the case, I really ask myself while tapping my fingers on my desk, what's in it for him.

Really not a big mystery or conspiracy... he was pretty clear what's in it for the US.

The US and the UK are allies. The US thinks British economic and diplomatic clout would decrease after Brexit. That would not be good for the US. The US also thinks Brexit would cause a nasty shock to the global economy. That would not be good for anyone.

I'm all for political cynicism, but sometimes interests do align.

Daisyonthegreen · 23/04/2016 16:06

Masses of information to dip into for busy mums to make the case for LEAVE
www.voteleavetakecontrol.org/our_case

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Daisyonthegreen · 23/04/2016 16:13

Cahalalala
You are still here,an EU citizen with a non EU boyfriend.......

Anyhow President Obama is the puppet of Big business who wants to along with the EU privatise our precious NHS.
Obama when a greenhorn idealistic new President wanted an NHS for America,he was soon chased off that idea by Big business in America.
This is about money and pressure from others to encourage Mr Obama( who resents us British because of family dealings in the past) to "cosh us".
Anyone with common sense will vote LEAVE.

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PigletJohn · 23/04/2016 16:22

Your ramblings are very confused, Daisy.

Have you got a point to make about President Obama? What is it?

Daisyonthegreen · 23/04/2016 16:30

And a woman's point of view for a change mums:
uk.businessinsider.com/reasons-why-uk-leaving-the-eu-brexit-is-a-good-idea-2015-10

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Daisyonthegreen · 23/04/2016 16:46

Mums there is a pamphlet: 101 Reasons Why We Should Leave The EU
By Hugh Williams.
St Edwards Press
C/o H M Williams
20 Barra Close
Highworth
Wiltshire
SN67HX
[email protected]
£3 for a copy.
Well worth a read.

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Daisyonthegreen · 23/04/2016 16:58

We must be able to control our borders.
This is horrific abuse of women and without control we risk more of this happening and spreading in our communities.
www.express.co.uk/news/uk/663639/Britain-s-secret-honour-abuse-Charity-dealing-one-case-daily

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