The EU Referendum is nearly upon us.........23rd June.

[Daisyonthegreen]

I have been invited by other posters to start a new EU Referendum Thread as the EU thread "In out shake it all about what to vote in the EU referendum "is now closed.
Anyhow this vote is is pretty crucial for the good of the country and your family.
I make no secret of the fact I feel to vote to Leave is the best option.
On the "In out shake it all about,what to vote in the EU Referendum " Thread I posted many links and gave views on why I feel that way.
I feel we would flourish free of the beaucratic ,undemocratic organisation it has turned into.
A Trading block initially started up with 9 countries in the 1970s has become out of control,mammoth and unwieldy and frankly rather dangerous.
We need to wrest back control of our own country,our borders and our ability to broker our own Trade deals which the EU insists on doing for us.
Plus our own Judicial decisions.
We on leaving would still Trade with the EU,they need us more than we need them actually but the beauty of it we could be free to broker our own deals with the rest of the world on our terms.
In short we would flourish.
We can love/ like Europe but not be in the EU.

Well Done Latvia.
Nip this in the bud early.
Why is it assumed the host countries culture should come last.
When in Rome etcetera.
www.independent.co.uk/news/islamic-muslim-face-veil-niqab-burqa-banned-latvia-despite-being-worn-by-just-three-women-entire-a6993991.html

In terms of conflict of interest I think we have seen examples on the EU threads.

I want to leave, but if we do, and there is economic uncertainty it will almost certainly affect us. I also adore travel, its hard enough to afford cheap flights as it is, they may go out of our reach should we leave and flights increase. Lots of other adverse affects of leaving could prove detrimental to myself and my family.

But, we still want to leave because so much else means so much more.

Yet people want to stay and remain for short sighted reasons LIKE cheaper flights, economic short term benefit etc. For the future of my DC I want to leave.

I am fed up with being lied to.
I am not taking chances with my children's future,safety and culture.
I will vote LEAVE as I feel many with any common sense will do.
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/immigration/12191579/True-scale-of-EU-migration-could-emerge-on-eve-of-referendum.html

Chalala Yep! Before I really have to go, I saw this earlier while reading the Guardian:

^As a scientist myself I don't understand the "collaboration " issue. Even if the UK leaves the EU, why will collaboration suffer? As a US based scientist I have no problem collaborating with my fellow European scientists though the US is not part of the EU. I bring money, they bring money and magic happens. The institute I work for has no problem recruiting top brains from the EU.
If two scientists or more want to collaborate - what stops them? Heck, look at LHC - one of the largest international collaboration projects ever built. Surely not all the scientists in that project come from EU member countries . What, suddenly scientists from Max Planck will not be able to work with scientists from Oxford just because the UK is not part of the EU anymore?^

Must admit, this has kind of been more my experience too...

However, the 'ever closer union' may affect science in non-anticipated ways (e.g., it may actually stp future international collaborations). Must go.

So this is the problem with being in the EU and being in the Euro. Local economies cannot have appropriate monetary policy for their unique situations

I think this is appropriate for all EU related things, we are all uniue and need to respond as needs must, we cant, we are changed to this clunking, great goliath that cant move quickly, needs 28 brains to chime together before anything can be done.

Chalalala
You stated at one time you are an EU citizen with a non EU boyfriend.
You say on one Thread you have been here years but you can't vote.
If that is correct why did you not try and become British? And why are you always on here to try and sway opinion if you haven't bothered to become British?
Ditto the same applies to Stillovingmysleep my sleep.

"If the Government's stance that immigration is making the country richer, how come the country is still in a trade deficit while at the same time we have record levels of immigration?"

But we run a surplus on both the services account and the capital account. We are mainly in trade deficit because we import lots and lots of cheap clothing, electrical goods etc that we could not produce at the same cost because other countries have a comparative advantage over us. You are conflating this with population growth.

At the same time since 1998 living standards have risen in the country since 1998. The country has not "got poorer", it may feel that way since the crash but its not true.

"Internal consumption does not make the country richer, it shuffles the existing money around"

Incorrect, it increases the likelyhood of investment and increases the amount that the government can spend investing in schools, education etc. It also increases the amount of FDI, all, of which increases the wealth of the country and its productive capacity.

"We are so badly off, that even with spending cuts, we're still borrowing more money."

Austerity was a political choice not a necessary one, the in initial round choked off growth in 2010 and has prolonged the need for it. In times of true austerity taxes are not cut for the wealthy.

"If the increase in population was generating a commensurate amount of exports, the said companies and their employees would be earning enough from imported money to pay for their own houses and be paying a lot more taxes to give to the Government to give them the means to build more schools and indeed enough to pay the doctors. "

Conflation again, we are not building enough homes because the priovate sector banks land and waits until it will be extremely profitable to build.

The schools and doctors argument? Well again, Oxford University say that immigration has had a positive effect on the NHS, UCL say that a reduction in immigration/making immigrants go home would be detrimental because the fall in demand wouldn't be great enough to make up for the cuts in funding that would come with lower tax take. The OMOU say that most EU immigrants are young adults who do not really impact on the provision of services.

Says it all really,every mum who wants a school place for her child,everyone who needs an NHS read this.
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3546775/Osborne-s-3million-migrant-clanger-Treasury-s-doom-laden-report.html

You know the schools problem wouldn't be happening if we weren't having the ideologically driven period of austerity, and I'll believe Oxford University over the Mail on the NHS any day.

Fourmummy
Our university president is a life scientist. Formally, the university is not taking a specific position. Informally, she has told us in the same field as her that Brexit would be a disaster for our institution. I don't know if other academics have had similar messages?

The reason that the institutions are for the EU is because they are under the same illusion that the EU somehow gives them "grants".

This is utter nonsense because the UK hands over £350m /week to the EU and the EU control freaks give us £240m in "grants". They are not grants, they are repayments of our own money.

If we Brexit, then instead of our government handing £350m to the EU, they can hand the money straight to the institutions directly.

I get a bit tired of hearing people lauding the EU "grants" us money. It's your tax money they are giving you!

Daisy I'm here to debate the Brexit question because it's my right to do so, and the rest of your personal questions are irrelevant really.

But you'll like this: I'm a mum of British children, and as a mum who wants the best for her children, this referendum is very important to me too.

£350m - not the actual figure, stop using it.

Anna could it be that the reason that they are not falling over each other to join is that they're not actually in Europe? Erm, nor is Turkey or the Ukraine. Anyway, you deliberately conflated belonging to with trading with and I was pointing that out.

At the same time since 1998 living standards have risen in the country since 1998. The country has not "got poorer", it may feel that way since the crash but its not true.

Emergency food parcels given out by The Trussel Trust in the financial year:

2015-2016. 1,109,309
2014-2015 1,084,604
2013-2014 913,138
2012-2013 346,992
2011-2012 128,697
2010-2011 61,468
2009-2010 40,898
2008-2009 25,899

Tell the million plus people who needed emergency food parcel this year that living standards have risen.

Then of course we have school places and hospital waiting times.

But of course, to you Remainers, its all hunky dory in the EU.

We also know from stats that 85% of the expansion of our population is from immigration

what stats have you been reading? I've read around 50%

Chalalala, its here.

www.migrationwatchuk.org/briefing-paper/345

Even if it were 50%, it's far too high.

£350m - not the actual figure,

The Uk is obliged to hand over £350million. An inconvenient truth for the REMAIN campaign, which is why they demand that we

stop using it.

We must also include the £1.6 billion that the EU demanded as a 'one-off' payment because of the UK's unexpected economic performance. In essence, the harder the work, the better our economy prospers - the more the parasitic EU sucks from us.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/11184605/Explainer-Why-must-Britain-pay-1.7bn-to-the-European-Union-and-can-we-stop-it-happening.html

If we Brexit, then instead of our government handing £350m to the EU, they can hand the money straight to the institutions directly.

Unless Brexit causes a serious economic shock, in which case tax revenue will be down and this extra money will go up in smoke.

I realize you probably disagree about Brexit having adverse economic consequences, but it is what most experts are predicting, and therefore a possibility worth at least considering.

Technically I'm an immigrant too (although I became a British citizen many manyyears ago through naturalisation).

In my family's case, my father studied to become a doctor (paying as a foreign student) and then spent 30 years working solely for the NHS (ideologically opposed to private medicine). So a pretty good return on the investment of "allowing" us in . We actually had the right to come in - not through EU citizenship but because my mum had been born in Scotland.

Not all immigrants are drains on the country's resources - as others have (very patiently) tried to explain. I've been a higher rate tax payer most of my working life (which will have more than paid for the free university education that I was old fortunate enough to enjoy)

And I fail to see what a reference to head covering has to do with an EU referendum - unless it is barely disguised Islamophobia. I live in an area where there is a very high proportion of Muslims (over 60% at ds' old primary school). They are here because of the historic presence of the British Empire in the Indian sub-continent. Nothing whatsoever to do with the EU.

And speaking as a mum (since Daisy seems to think that that makes an opinion more important ) I am much more concerned about the danger to the future of the NHS as a result of the Conservative government than the EU. Ditto with schools.

Cahalala

^Bronze it seems to me that you are showing a correlation between immigration and lower GDP per capita, but this doesn't demonstrate a causal link. How about the impact of all the other internal and external economic factors on the UK?

After Brexit you could (maybe, maybe not) control the immigration factor, but it's not implausible that many other economic factors would degrade significantly, thus leaving Britain in a worse position overall.^

What I was attempting to do is demonstrate that the Government when it implies that immigration adds to the wealth of our country, the are misleading the pubic.

It cannot be possible for the reasons I mentioned. Despite immigration, we are getting poorer, that is a fact. So on that basis we need to control immigration to only import people that will contribute to the economy or fill jobs we can't fill locally, just like the USA or Australia, I'm out. We can never control our borders while in the EU. We have more chance out.

Yes I agree, in or out there is a risk.

However, I also would assert that nobody can predict what will happen to the UK by 2030 if we stay or if we leave. It is pure speculation and would say there is just as much chance that the UK is better of than worse off. I am not going to make a prediction and this point would not influence the way I vote.

George Osborne: Brexit would leave UK ‘permanently poorer’ This is total nonsense. How can he even begin to make such a crass statement. He is delusional and desperate and/or being told what to say.

He is saying we will always be poorer 'til the end of time out of the EU and there is no chance of ever getting richer.- do you honestly believe that?

I am an academic and the reason I am extremely concerned about Brexit is the reestriction of freedom of movement.

I work in a sector where the work of UK institutions is world-leading. That is due in no small part to the ability of universities to attract highly skilled scientists from all over Europe. In my Department for instance, the majority of researchers were born outside of the UK.

Right now the paperwork to employ a non-EU scientist on a tier 5 visa takes 6-8 months. If I had to go through the same hurdles every time I wanted to hire a bright French or German graduate, I would loose any competitive edge I have in my field.

Turkey or the Ukraine. Are technically in Europe, some of Turkey is in Asia.

"Tell the million plus people who needed emergency food parcel this year that living standards have risen."

ONS stats show that the level of household income has raised continually since the 1970s, generally indicating raised living standards.

The need for food banks tends to be short term, and is also very much down to an increasing inequality, in general living standards have raised.

"Then of course we have school places and hospital waiting times."

www.bsg.ox.ac.uk/research/working-paper-series/working-paper-005

Oxford University shows that Immigration reduced waiting times:

"On average, a 10 percentage point increase in the share of migrants living in a local authority would reduce waiting times by 9 days. The authors find no evidence that immigration affects waiting times in A&E and in elective care. "

A further paper found that the only badly effected areas were deprived areas outside of London, and then only between 2004 and 2008.

www.nuffield.ox.ac.uk/economics/papers/2015/giunt_nic_silva2015.pdf

The schools issue could have been resolved if we'd actually built enough schools/extended them enough for the places needed. Its been being said that we need more spaces for a long time. Also we've been funding "free schools" in areas which have surplus place

"we are getting poorer, that is a fact"

Do you know the difference between "a fact" and an unsupported assertion?

Cahalala

^Bronze it seems to me that you are showing a correlation between immigration and lower GDP per capita, but this doesn't demonstrate a causal link. How about the impact of all the other internal and external economic factors on the UK?

After Brexit you could (maybe, maybe not) control the immigration factor, but it's not implausible that many other economic factors would degrade significantly, thus leaving Britain in a worse position overall.^

What I was attempting to do is demonstrate that the Government when it implies that immigration adds to the wealth of our country, the are misleading the pubic.

It cannot be possible for the reasons I mentioned. Despite immigration, we are getting poorer, that is a fact. So on that basis we need to control immigration to only import people that will contribute to the economy or fill jobs we can't fill locally, just like the USA or Australia, I'm out. We can never control our borders while in the EU. We have more chance out.

Yes I agree, in or out there is a risk.

However, I also would assert that nobody can predict what will happen to the UK by 2030 if we stay or if we leave. It is pure speculation and would say there is just as much chance that the UK is better of than worse off. I am not going to make a prediction and this point would not influence the way I vote.

George Osborne: Brexit would leave UK ‘permanently poorer’ This is total nonsense. How can he even begin to make such a crass statement. He is delusional and desperate and/or being told what to say.

He is saying we will always be poorer 'til the end of time out of the EU and there is no chance of ever getting richer.- do you honestly believe that?

Bronze of course I never believe anything Osborne says, in principle

Of course the government are exaggerating and using empty rhetoric. But it doesn't mean they're wrong on the principle, or on the short- to mid-term, which could still be a very large chunk of our lifetimes.